Live with Diane Ragsdale & Andrew Taylor! (EP.33)
Last Updated
May 5, 2020
Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guests Diane Ragsdale & Andrew Taylor. [Live show recorded: May 1, 2020.]
Guests Diane Ragsdale & Andrew Taylor
Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin
Guest
E. ANDREW TAYLOR, Associate Professor and Department Chair of the Performing Arts Department at American University thinks (a bit too much) about organizational structure, strategy, and management practice in the nonprofit arts. An Associate Professor of Arts Management at American University, he also consults for cultural, educational, and support organizations throughout North America. He recently completed a five-year sponsored research project for the William Penn Foundation on “Capitalizing Change in the Performing Arts.” Andrew is past president of the Association of Arts Administration Educators, board member for Fractured Atlas, and consulting editor for The Journal of Arts Management, Law, and Society, and for Artivate, a journal on arts entrepreneurship. Since July 2003, he has written a popular weblog on the business of arts and culture, "The Artful Manager," hosted by ArtsJournal.com (www.artfulmanager.com ).
DIANE RAGSDALE is faculty co-lead of the Cultural Leadership Program at Banff Center for Arts & Creativity; and an assistant professor and program director for the Masters in Arts Management & Entrepreneurship MA at the New School in NYC, where she also designed and launched a graduate minor in Creative Community Development. She additionally teaches a workshop on aesthetic values in a changed cultural context for Yale University's Theater Management MA. Ragsdale is a frequent speaker, blogger, writer, and advisor on a range of arts and culture topics. She previously worked as a program officer for theater and dance at The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, ran a contemporary performing arts center and a music festival, held a variety of administrative posts, and began her arts career as a theater practitioner (she has an MFA in acting & directing). She is presently a doctoral candidate at Erasmus University in the Netherlands, where she lectured in the cultural economics program from 2011-2015. Her dissertation examines the evolving relationship between the nonprofit and commercial theater in the US over an 80-year period. She is on the board of Anne Bogart's SITI Company; on the editorial board for Artivate: A Journal of Entrepreneurship in the Arts; and on the Advisory Council for the online theater platform and journal, HowlRound. Among others, she wrote an essay ("To What End Permanence?") for the 2019 book, A Moment on the Clock of the World, published by Haymarket Press. She has dual-citizenship and divides her time between the US and the Netherlands.
Transcript
Tim Cynova:
Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live, The Morning-ish Show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by another duo of guests, Diane Ragsdale and Andrew Taylor. They each have extensive enrich bios that are available in the episode description, so I thought it'd be fun to look at the similarities. They were both early to the blogging game with Diane's Jumper blog and Andrew's Artful Manager blog being featured on ArtsJournal for more than a decade. They both direct and teach in university programs and led efforts over the past few months to rapidly transition curriculum processes and work to an entirely virtual context, and I'll offer even more importantly in my opinion, doing this while also being there for their students as they process the huge shifts in their lives in education.
Tim Cynova:
They are each sought after consultants with their own unique specialties, have both been gracious to appear on previous Work. Shouldn't. Suck. podcast episodes and they are genuinely amazing humans who we are honored to know and have the opportunity to work with. I'm not exactly sure which way this conversation will go, but I'm excited to find out. Without further ado, Andrew and Diane, welcome to the show.
Diane Ragsdale:
Thank you. [crosstalk 00:01:14].
Lauren Ruffin:
Tim gave both of you bios.
Andrew Taylor:
That's cool.
Lauren Ruffin:
And in particular one of the questions we've been opening with everyone is how is your community? And I know the two of you share community similarities that Tim highlighted, but would love to just hear how your students and how your colleagues and how you're fairing right now, how you're processing things.
Andrew Taylor:
You go Diane.
Diane Ragsdale:
Okay. Hi. I knew we'd figured that out. So I would say on the one hand, I work at two different institutions, The New School and the Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity. Banff Centre had to lay off 80% of its staff. I'm not staffed there, I'm an independent contractor. But that's of course really tough to see. Just the sudden loss of... They're furloughed, I think. But I think the questions of when people come back. So people are dealing with that uncertainty. Certainly lots and lots of artists I know who have just had all of their gigs fall the way at The New School because the program is... I'm the program director for an arts management and entrepreneurship program for artists and they've lost those gigs and sometimes their day jobs, working in restaurants or other places. So that's been huge. And of course it's not a level playing field. Some students come from different parts of the world where they've been trying to get back to or concerned about family members. Everyone's in different situations. And so yeah, quite concerned about their welfare.
Andrew Taylor:
Yeah. And I guess that I'm noticing how many communities I'm part of and there's certainly the immediate community, I would imagine our students and our colleagues and the faculty, obviously my family and circle of friends. But then I think both Diane and I travel in multiple circles. So just seeing independent artists in this moment, performing artists, in my case, smaller midsize arts organizations, large scale, multi-venue performing arts centers, foundations, all these are different communities. And I'm noticing both how they're all suffering in their way, but they're also more disconnected than I imagined them to be.
Andrew Taylor:
That even among theaters and the artists in the theater, these are different communities in many cases and they are struggling to find their feet separately rather than together in many ways and obviously that's because we're so distant at the moment, maybe. But I think all the communities are struggling. I'm absolutely privileged and I'm continuing to be employed and that's extraordinary and I figure that's a responsibility too, so let's take it out for a spin, as are you guys, which is amazing.
Lauren Ruffin:
Yeah. I'm also wondering along, Andrew, your point about how even within communities there's distinctions that raises the folks who are doing functions that are full-time job functions, but who are contractors. It feels like those legal employment designations that we take for granted in some ways, at this point you really do begin to see how disparate the playing field is.
Andrew Taylor:
Yeah, very much, in particularly through artists who are on gig schedules and their employers who are on salary. That tends to be okay-ish, although pretty inequitable anytime, but on a even keel economy at least there's a gig coming up and there's another gig after that. And the detachment of now institutions, as Diane said, furloughing and certainly canceling all contracts. So any gig worker's out and then even part-times are out. Just the floor falling out from some people and being shaky for others. But just seeing the inequity in the structure so obvious even though it was there before is pretty striking.
Lauren Ruffin:
And Diane, I know you're working with a Canadian institution. And the government's been providing a different level of support than we have in the United States. Are any of your colleagues there feeling like this is an opportunity for them to perhaps pivot their work or think about how they engage with their work differently because they are getting that financial support?
Diane Ragsdale:
I would say it depends. In Canada, it often depends on what province you're in in terms of what kind of local support et cetera you can get, so that's also not a monolithic response by any means. I would say that even with government support organizations are having to pivot and are definitely looking at doing so. One of the things that's interesting to me, Banff of course is a place that is a destination. People want to go up the mountain and be in that place. And so those big question marks, like what does it mean to run an institution where place is so critical and people want to gather there in this time?
Diane Ragsdale:
But even in the U.S., one of the things I really, in the performing arts center front, for a long time I've worried about the coupling of mission and venue or facility and a conflating of that. And I'm struck by at this moment how many of the questions seem to center around when do we get back in the space? What are we going to do with the space? How is the space going to work? And I think, is that the right question or should we be asking maybe questions like, what's the role of art in the time of COVID and after COVID and artists and teaching artists and what are the ways we might be in the world? And without the frame of the building I think being so front and center, the lens through which all questions have to be asked.
Tim Cynova:
Well, and speaking about buildings, you both work for universities and have both gone through what I can imagine has been an incredibly challenging rough time as everyone almost overnight and sometimes overnight had to transition from what was very place-based and in most cases to now being virtual to each other. So I'm wondering how that's going for you. And also, as you speak with the students and think about your own courses that you're teaching and what you hope that the students you're working with might take from this or learn in a way, if only to just be human and understanding, but what is the role for our curriculum and training arts administrators of the future at this time?
Diane Ragsdale:
You go, Andrew.
Andrew Taylor:
Okay. Thank you. Yeah, the whole university pivoted to online and distant work and I talked to some of our tech people. They said they were planning some more online work, but they figured it would take a year and a half to transition us all before the reality came and we pivoted in four days. And I guess what I keep noticing is technology doesn't create things. It exposes them. It reveals them. And what it revealed to me is my colleagues are extraordinary, kind, generous, compassionate, and that's the stuff that it revealed. It also revealed all sorts of the fault lines in a badly constructed syllabus. It's a weak approach to developing and designing the course suddenly became so obvious to everybody.
Andrew Taylor:
In terms of our students, I think the message is around really understand how a system is connected when it's falling apart. I mean that's when you see it. It's invisible otherwise, and I just encourage them, watch, just describe what you're seeing. Don't judge, just describe what you see and you're going to start to see the problems that were always there, but now they're so obvious we can't even pretend they're not there. Which on the good side and the bad side. So on the positive, compassionate, connected, people are so passionate about their work. And on the downside, inequitable structures overly coupled, as Diane was saying, to capital, physical and economic. It's just all revealing itself.
Andrew Taylor:
And then on it's side they're all terrified because they came to grad school to get working strong and powerful jobs and that way they could make a difference in the arts, and that whole infrastructure is getting really fuzzy lifting right now. So fear and revelation there. That's it. That's the Bible.
Lauren Ruffin:
There's a book on that [crosstalk 00:07:31].
Diane Ragsdale:
Do you want me to weigh in on that one too?
Tim Cynova:
Yeah, please.
Lauren Ruffin:
Yeah.
Diane Ragsdale:
One of the things, just from a practical standpoint as a assistant professor, program director, that sort of realm, I've been struck by how symbolic or performative the spaces are for faculty at universities or maybe it's just my university, but I've had this in other places as well, which is we go to our offices and we sit in them sometimes, but I have a bookshelf this big, you have a drawer that can fit about eight files. I share an office with eight people. If we each have a student in to talk, and if one of those is teaching a lesson, you really can't actually have a decent conversation, can't really work and do the things that faculty do.
Diane Ragsdale:
And so in a weird way, being home these last 30 days and adapting to that, I'm like, I don't know why I would ever go back into the office again because I'm so much more productive at home because the environment is so much more conducive to things that assistant professors do, which is read, write, prepare lectures, have one on one conversations with people that are sustained and need to be thoughtful. But there is a symbolism to it, which is people just like to know there's somebody sitting in the office. So, that's one thing.
Diane Ragsdale:
I agree with everything Andrew said in terms of how much is revealed. And I've really seen, I think The New School has really stepped up in an awesome way during this time, and The College of Performing Arts. I've been so impressed with my colleagues and everyone, the students and their gamesmanship and willingness to keep going with this, even though it's clunky. If you can imagine in a conservatory trying to teach lessons and do ensembles and all of that and they're going with it.
Diane Ragsdale:
One thing I've observed though is that moving to technology, it's like the flipped classroom is less about the tech and more about the disruption of power dynamics. When you have to do this day after day, you begin to feel what it means to cede power to the students in terms of their being able to, I think, have more agency in their learning journey. I've always heard that saying that the flipped classroom is about going from the sage on the stage to the guide on the side. And I've always said that. I don't think I've ever really done it until now and now it's like, oh, okay, I get this. It's really their thing now and I'm there to support it. And I think that's a really good thing that's come out of this experience.
Lauren Ruffin:
This is a random question, but I realized... Tim blinked rapidly, so I know random questions make you a little nervous. But early on in our show, Tim, you were sharing that you were curious about what professors who are working with ensembles or multiple groups, and I realized I don't know how or if that ever resolved itself until you've mentioned it, Diane. So how is that working out practically?
Diane Ragsdale:
Well, some of that work, I think it can't happen really practically. One on one lessons we found actually are translating really well, and certainly smaller ensembles. I have a student who, for their graduation, for their capstone project, students had to do independently produced projects. One of them is doing a podcast musical, his name is Alexander Ronneburg, and he's been able to completely rehearse online and make click tracks. And then a lot of students and faculty as well are really adapting to this and figuring out ways to continue to work. I don't know that the large ensemble yet has been solved. I think these are more intractable. What about you Andrew? Do you know?
Andrew Taylor:
I'm chair of The Department of Performing Arts at American University. So we have five programs, dance, musical theater, music, audio technology and arts management. And as you can imagine this semester, I think we've got a pass. We're just all scrambling. We canceled all of our live productions in theaters, all of our performances in music, all the recitals and juries, all the things that really, really should happen in a shared space with an audience. And we got a pass, we did substitutes, we did online lessons and we shifted a lot of practical work toward more theoretical work. Like let's learn how an orchestra works and let's talk about the different sections and maybe we can do sectionals. But the challenge for us is fall. So it's quite likely that most universities are not going to physically open at the beginning of the semester and probably maybe in the January, February.
Andrew Taylor:
So we don't get the pass in fall. We have time to think about, well, how do you teach ensemble derive theater? How do you teach acting? How do you teach ensemble performance? And you have a runway to figure it out, so you better figure it out. We're all thinking now like okay, we made it, everybody understood. We were just like, yeah, whatever. Scrambling, flailing, fine. Fall is not going to be that. And the students will expect more from, us as they should. I've been looking, there's not a whole lot of resources available to say, well how do you do this in a way that has deep meaningful social context and context? So, luckily I won't be chair then. Yay. So I'll just hand it off mid-summer.
Tim Cynova:
I was talking with someone this morning who works at a conservatory and they measured out their stage to see six feet physical distance, how many people could fit on the stage, and it's a big stage. They could fit 45 people. That's like half the orchestra. So even if you come back into a space and you have those constraints, what does that even look like? How do you do that? One of the things we've talked about a lot is it's a different thing. Doing a lesson or ensembles is a different thing. Much like managing in person versus managing remotely and what new skills are we learning and how are we developing in different ways?
Tim Cynova:
And I don't know, something someone said has just resulted in a lot of people on our live chat. So I'm going to just like toss this back into the space and see what's going on in the live chat. Make of that what you will.
Lauren Ruffin:
Okay.
Andrew Taylor:
Yeah, right. Yes, it's a different thing. To Diane's earlier point, I can't wait to get back to my office. Oh my God. And I know it's symbolic. [crosstalk 00:12:22]. It's symbolic for me to be in a different place where my role is to be a person working, which is not what my house is. And I know a lot of these people have different tolerances for that. My tolerance is zero. If I'm here, I should be available to the people in the house and not off in a corner. And so it's, anyway, I'll talk to my therapist about this.
Tim Cynova:
We have some comments coming in. I'm still reading through them, but someone that we all know [inaudible 00:12:47]. Getting greetings from Toronto. Here's to hear from Andrew and Diane on which writers, thinkers, and content digital or not you're leaning on during this time. I assume [inaudible 00:12:56] means other than [inaudible 00:12:57].
Andrew Taylor:
Yeah. What else is there?
Tim Cynova:
So what else is on your list?
Diane Ragsdale:
Yeah, and we are, I think two of your biggest fans. We have been dedicated [inaudible 00:13:05]. I'll give one thing. Rebecca Solnit's, A Field Guide to Getting Lost, which I love her work. Generally, I feel like she is just, her voice at this time on anything is interesting to me. And she has many, many books, but that's the one that I've been going back to the most. And I'll give you just one [inaudible 00:13:21] from that that's been sticking with me, which is, she talks about getting lost in the relationship and that in the creative process, but also the different ways we can get lost. And one of them is losing yourself in a sense. And in these times when you have to adapt from the old thing to the new thing, and you're in the middle and at some point the old thing is lost to you. It's less familiar and you've started to move into the new thing. It's not quite familiar. And I feel like that's where I'm at at the moment. And it reminds me a bit of...
Diane Ragsdale:
Even when I moved to the Netherlands, there was a point when I didn't yet feel Dutch or part of that world, but I had already started losing my connection to the U.S. So I feel like that book has been [inaudible 00:13:58].
Andrew Taylor:
Yeah. I guess reading poetry is really useful because it's at the intersection of intellect and sensibility and emotion and that borderline is evaporated in most of our lives. There's no difference now between the rational world and the emotional world, and that's where poetry lives for me. So there's just stuff I keep going back to and that connects. And I think I'm just starting to read a lot more about evidence based learning.
Andrew Taylor:
So if I'm supposed to be a teacher in this world, what does it mean to learn? And a lot of the assumptions I had were based on physical proximity and being in a room and riffing with students and imagining I was teaching them. And so now I'm really thinking I need to deconstruct that engine, take it apart and put it back together again because it's going to be different. So a bunch of different books on pedagogy and the evidence of how the brain gains knowledge and adapts it to the world is important to me right now.
Tim Cynova:
God, I always hated teaching after Andrew because he's got amazing poems that fit exactly the moment. I'm like how do you find these things? [inaudible 00:14:48] this YouTube video that's 20 seconds, but it captures the entire four hour lesson in a 20 second video. I'm like, God I really need to step up my game here-
Andrew Taylor:
No, it's [crosstalk 00:14:58]
Tim Cynova:
-before Andrew.
Lauren Ruffin:
It does strike me that, in talking to in particular people who are really, or organizations that are really, really invested in events and gatherings that the quality of our content is going to have to get so much stronger and the discernment around keynote speakers, panels, however we're going to do this thing. I do feel like it's going to be a bit of the people who go first in this brave new world in terms of bringing together large convenings are going to be like the emperor's new clothes. It's just, you're going to be stripped bare because the content's going to have to be so solid because I think audiences are becoming more discerning in how they're consuming and how they're ranking and rating content and learning and knowledge.
Andrew Taylor:
I was talking to a colleague this morning and I'm noticing so many conferences are now moving online, but their assumption is... Actually, so just to push back a little, the content is the thing that makes the conference matter. When it's actually the cocktail party and the snarkiness while you're listening to a panel you think is not particularly bright. The event is a social object. It's this thing that pulls us together like a magnet and allows us to pet your dogs are the classic social object. They pull people together and then they start a conversation, so the dog is the initiator.
Andrew Taylor:
So I'm just curious if really the nature of the content as opposed to the structure around it, which is I want to go to a conference online where it's encouraged that you be snarky with your digital neighbor and don't necessarily listen to the panel, and that could be cool. I'm curious about the new relationship between what we imagine to be important about an arts experience, which is the thing on the stage and what is actually valuable, which is that plus. And I think Diane always writes about this so beautifully. I don't know if you agree.
Tim Cynova:
Yeah. Well that's so nice, Andrew. For a long, long time I feel like I've been pushing against the conferences of trade associations and things like that in part because they were initially established when we didn't have other ways to communicate, and so to pull everyone together and march through these sessions one after another and when as exactly as Andrew says, you realize at some point the most meaningful stuff is happening at the bar or at the breakfast. I think also now we have this weird phenomenon where not only are we seeing digital content, but you can get access to some really awesome folks.
Tim Cynova:
What's it going to mean that now that we've been able to watch the top opera singers in the world seeing from their bedrooms to us or we've been able to have just a rockstar person jump on Zoom and give a talk that everybody can listen to for free. How does that begin to also adapt on the other side of this, our expectations of who we want to listen to and do we even ever want to get on planes again and fly anywhere? And if so, what's going to be that experience? I'm already thinking about the number of conferences that I would be like, yeah, if there's going to be a stream, I'll just watch that. And which ones I would go, no, I'd really want to go there because I want to basically hang out with people in a more social way.
Lauren Ruffin:
Yeah. I was talking to Jess Solomon who's with the Deutsch Foundation a couple weeks ago and she was saying that one of the beautiful parts of this moment is we have are the masters of our time being willing to share their gifts for free and that's just going to refine our sense of how we should be spending our time.
Diane Ragsdale:
Yeah.
Lauren Ruffin:
So yeah, I think that's spot on.
Diane Ragsdale:
It's also important to note how many people... There are certain... There are people in disability justice. There are various people who are being called on right now to jump on webinars day and night and share their wisdom and I think are often uncompensated. And this is a moment I think where everybody's like, I just want to jump in and be valuable and useful, of course. There's going to come a point where we'll need to figure out how these things get compensated as well, so we're not back in the same situation that has been revealed by COVID, which is the number of artists and public intellectuals and other kinds of people for whom there is no real couch to sustain their throw pillows, so to speak, to use any [inaudible 00:18:19] metaphor for our business models.
Lauren Ruffin:
Yeah.
Tim Cynova:
That's awesome. Let's see some more stuff online. I've got to scroll back and catch some stuff. Your resonating comment that students have been incredible in their resilience and creativity and making things work. A lot of innovation coming from them and there's a sense of shared purpose. Comment about the hybrid pedagogy community and because people can't share links here, we'll figure out how to share the link there. And a question about, since we can see world-class opera singers in their bedroom singing, what does this mean for local organizations who are trying to enter the digital content world? Any thoughts on that?
Diane Ragsdale:
Yeah, so Jamie Bennett, who was the first speaker on The Morning-ish Show, first guest, brought up DreamYard, which is an arts and education center in the Bronx, who looked at this moment and went, what's the thing we could do right now that would be really valuable to the community we serve? And they decided to serve free lunches because in their community that was the thing that was really needed. Part of what I've been thinking about the last couple of weeks is actually the beauty of small and local and what it means to just go back to those essentials of being a good neighbor.
Diane Ragsdale:
So I don't know if I had a smaller organization, if my first impulse would be to throw content online, particularly because right, you can watch The National Theater, et cetera, or whether it would be to in some ways engage the community around other needs. I also, one of my observations is the number of organizations that, I'm going to use a crass phrase, but kicked to the curb their teaching artists during this period of time and I feel like that was so foolish because if there's a kind of person in the world that I think could be really valuable in any kind of institution right now it's teaching artists.
Diane Ragsdale:
They know how to help people create scaffolds of meaning and learning. They know how to facilitate. They understand their communities. They're often in the front lines of organizations. People are at home right now trying to make meaning, try to enjoy their lives, trying to teach their kids. And I think I would have been trying to hire up an army of teaching artists and figure out a way to deploy them in the world. Maybe that would be another scenario or another option.
Tim Cynova:
We're coming up on Lauren's question. I think we need to... I mean, we could run this for three hours and I would feel like we're just maybe getting to 30 minutes. So sadly we're coming up on time. So Lauren, why don't you lead off or close up with the suitcase question?
Lauren Ruffin:
Yeah. Or as it's known now after Deena yesterday, the up in the air question with George Clooney. So for both of you, and we heard hints of this during this conversation, but you have a suitcase that you carry around with you throughout your life, filled with habits and things you love to do and things you maybe don't like to do, but you do anyway. What's one thing that has been in your suitcase for a long time that you were leaving out post-pandemic? And then what's one thing, one habit, behavior, love, whatever that you've picked up during the pandemic that you're going to take with you forever?
Andrew Taylor:
One thing I'm leaving out, obviously I teach organizational management theory. So there's a whole bunch of theories about how structures work and how you're supposed to behave, best practice. Most of those are gone and it's more about what are the useful ways to see the world? What are the frameworks that actually help me see more clearly and in more actionable ways? There's a series of those, I'm happy to share offline somewhere. And the other thing is just be kind. Kindness is the thing that really first and always and that almost, it helps patch the cracks in a lot of things. So just kindness first and then just tools that help me see more clearly and help other people say more clearly.
Diane Ragsdale:
That's so nice Andrew. Mine's really prosaic. On the one hand I think one of the things that's going out of the suitcase is paper. I have been a hugely paper dependent person and I don't have a printer at home. I do, but it doesn't really work well and so I just haven't been printing. And I'm like, I think I'm past the paper, which I know my associate, Alex Chadwell who's a composer works day to day with me. He's often like, "You're really paper dependent." I'm like, "it's gone. Alex, it's gone."
Diane Ragsdale:
And then on the what's coming into the suitcase. So family Zoom. I have four brothers, a mom, a dad, a stepdad, a biological dad, and one of the things, when my mom and stepdad, my three younger brothers, we've started family Zoom on Sundays, which we've never done. We live all over the place and it has been one of the best things ever and I hope we keep that for the rest of our lives. It's so meaningful to me. And maybe if I could add one more little thing. One of the things, Syrus Marcus Ware, who you had on, one of the things he taught me in his work is the saying, I hope I get it right. It's something like, we've got a lot to do, so we better go slow.
Diane Ragsdale:
And I've always been a intense, keep it going kind of person. And one of the things this is teaching me I think is how to pause and go slower, even though you feel the pressure to respond right now to that.
Tim Cynova:
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's great. [crosstalk 00:22:32]. Both of you.
Lauren Ruffin:
You guys are great.
Tim Cynova:
Yeah. So uplifting to spend time with you today. Thank you both for making time to be on the show.
Andrew Taylor:
Well, thank you guys for this show, it has saved me and so thank you.
Lauren Ruffin:
Yeah, I love every episode. It's been great.
Tim Cynova:
Continue the Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live adventure with us on our next episode when we're joined by Darren Walker, president of the Ford Foundation. Miss us in the meantime, you can download more Work. Shouldn't. Suck. episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice and re-watch Work. Shouldn't. Suck. Live episodes over on workshoudntsuck.co.
Tim Cynova:
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