Live with Alexis Frasz! (EP.35)
Last Updated
May 8, 2020
Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guest Alexis Frasz. [Live show recorded: May 7, 2020.]
Guest: Alexis Frasz
Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin
Guest
ALEXIS FRASZ sees culture as both a context for and a driver of social change. She is a researcher, strategist and advisor to partners in culture, philanthropy, and the environmental sector, helping design and implement strategies to drive transformative change. Her perspective on systems change draws on her background in cultural anthropology, Chinese Medicine, permaculture design, Buddhism, and martial arts. She is passionate about bringing arts and culture into greater solidarity with broader movements working for social, ecological, and economic justice.
Alexis speaks, teaches, and mentors leaders in the U.S. and Canada on integrating creative and civic leadership, and is faculty in the cultural leadership program at the Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity and the Creative Climate Leadership program run by Julie’s Bicycle. Her research (with Holly Sidford) on socially engaged artistic practice has informed artist training curriculums and philanthropic programs worldwide. She is actively engaged in Helicon’s ongoing work to confront structural inequities in the cultural sector.
Alexis graduated Summa cum Laude from Princeton University with a degree in Cultural Anthropology and has pursued Master’s level study in Chinese Medicine. She is an advisor of the NorCal Resilience Network, the Headlands Center for the Arts, and The Artist’s Literacy’s Institute. She lives in Oakland, where she spends time in her garden and studies with integrated spiritual/psychological teacher, Jennifer Welwood.
Hear more about Alexis's thoughts on Basic Income.
Transcript
Tim Cynova:
Hi, I'm Tim Cynova, and welcome to Work Shouldn't Suck Live, the morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by Alexis Frasz. Alexis currently serves as a co-director of Helicon Collaborative. In her work, she is a researcher, strategist, and advisor to partners in culture, philanthropy in the environmental sector, helping design and implement strategies to drive transformative change. Her perspective on systems change draws on her background in cultural anthropology, Chinese medicine, permaculture design, Buddhism, and martial arts. And, as you soon will find out, she is passionate about bringing arts and culture into greater solidarity with broader movements, working for social, ecological, and economic change.
Tim Cynova:
Her research with friend of the show, Holly Sidford, on socially engaged artistic practice has informed artist training curriculums and philanthropic programs worldwide. She's actively engaged in Helicon's ongoing work to confront structural inequities in the cultural sector, and we are honored that she's here to spend a couple minutes with us today.
Tim Cynova:
Without further ado, Alexis, welcome to the show.
Alexis Frasz:
Hi. It's good to be here.
Lauren Ruffin:
Oh, it's good to see your face, one of our favorite people to talk to.
Alexis Frasz:
Likewise.
Lauren Ruffin:
So, how are you, and how's your community doing right now, during the pandemic?
Alexis Frasz:
I'm good. I feel really lucky, I think as a lot of us do, who have jobs, who are healthy, so I feel pretty good. I'm a gardener. I'm a bit of a prepper, actually, so I feel validated in some ways. My friends are coming to me and asking for my canned goods, and my tips on how to grow things, so I finally feel like I have a purpose. Yeah, I feel good.
Alexis Frasz:
Of course, that's on a background of, really, being over the extent of the suffering that's in the larger community, so that's heartbreaking, too.
Tim Cynova:
Just on the prepper and tips, what's the most frequent tip that you give people? Before we move into the broader conversation, deeper conversation, what's the most frequent tip you're giving your friends right now?
Alexis Frasz:
Store food, store water. We're in earthquake country, so for us ... I'm in California, so it's really important to have extra stuff. My pantry before, I didn't have to make a Costco run. My pantry was full for months, which is just how I live. That's because I cook a lot, that's not all prepping. Yeah, keep things around.
Alexis Frasz:
Learn how to grow a garden, if you've got space. I know, Tim, you probably don't do that in New York.
Tim Cynova:
I had one of those electric gardens, like the hydroponic gardens with the pods.
Alexis Frasz:
Oh, yeah.
Tim Cynova:
But, it's a small apartment, and those lights don't go off at night, so it's like this floodlight coming into your sleeping space.
Alexis Frasz:
That's torture, too.
Tim Cynova:
Yeah, it lasted one or two pod rounds. We were like, "It's not worth those cherry tomatoes and fresh basil from this thing."
Alexis Frasz:
Right.
Lauren Ruffin:
I'm really enjoying the torture theme of this episode.
Tim Cynova:
It's really started off weird, Lauren.
Lauren Ruffin:
That's why the audience keeps coming back.
Tim Cynova:
That stresses me out.
Lauren Ruffin:
As a fellow prepper, I feel like every good prepper has an apocalypse team. When you meet people, you have new friends, and you're thinking if things go left in the world, who am I taking with me, do you currently have any openings on your apocalypse team? If so, what skills are you looking for?
Alexis Frasz:
Oh my God, that's such a good question. First of all, Lauren, you're in.
Lauren Ruffin:
Yeah, I know. I'm on everybody's apocalypse team. Entertainment and ax throwing, what else do you need?
Alexis Frasz:
Yeah, exactly. I mean, the weapons thing, I have to admit my apocalypse team tends more ... I studied martial arts, so I used to feel confident in that piece of it, but these days I'm pretty rusty. So, I think if we actually needed to, I've got a rag tag band of sailors, and cooks, and very caring, gentle people, so I think we might need some of that.
Tim Cynova:
If anyone needs a long distance cyclist on their team ...
Alexis Frasz:
Yeah.
Lauren Ruffin:
I mean, bike mechanics, that's a valuable skill.
Tim Cynova:
I didn't say bike mechanics, I said long distance cyclist.
Lauren Ruffin:
Well, you're going to have to get there.
Alexis Frasz:
Endurance. Endurance is key, too.
Lauren Ruffin:
I know I was pushing you.
Tim Cynova:
You're right, I could change flat tires for everyone. Just to keep this going.
Tim Cynova:
Speaking of systems change, we had the opportunity to chat a couple weeks ago, and one of the things that came up was that we talk about systems change a lot. People talk about systems change in various ways, and few people ... I shouldn't say few people. It feels like more, nowadays, people are actually starting to see systems that they might otherwise not have seen.
Tim Cynova:
I'm curious to get your thoughts, Alexis, this is something that you spend a lot of time thinking about, how the systems work, how the systems don't work, what we can do to use this as an opportunity to create better systems for us in the future, so that more people can thrive. I'm throwing out a really wide question, to get us off of the topic of me not being able to be a team member for your team, so we're going to take a hard left here, and come into a different topic.
Alexis Frasz:
Yeah, I do think a lot about systems change, and I think it's tough because right now is the moment when a lot of people are looking, and A, seeing that we live in a system. We see the systems around us falling apart, so we're aware of them in ways that we might not otherwise be. This is middle class or upper class people, I think that people who live with broken systems every day understand that they're broken, and they know that they're victims of them. But, more people are seeing that, and that's a real opportunity. At the same time, it's daunting to think about how to actually influence change in those systems.
Alexis Frasz:
But, I do think there's some really interesting things that are giving me hope right now, about that, because we're seeing ideas that were so fringe, even six months ago. Well, we had Andrea in talking about basic income, that I don't think people were taking that very seriously. Universal healthcare has been a struggle, the idea of eliminating debt has been something that fringe groups have been working on. But now, people understand why that matters, so I think there is this opening where people are suddenly understanding why those things affect us all.
Lauren Ruffin:
Earlier this week, maybe yesterday, the days are blending together, the Wallace Global Fund published a piece in USA Today that talked about the need to increase foundations giving to the 10%. I mean, you work with such a wide range of organizations, do you think that's another idea that might gain traction in the coming weeks and months?
Alexis Frasz:
I hope so. I mean, I think people who are promoting that are saying, "Well, what are we waiting for? Are we going to wait until it gets much worse?" I work in the environmental space as well, and people who work on climate change have been saying that for a long time because it's only going to get more expensive, the dollars are going to go less far the worse things get.
Alexis Frasz:
I really hope that is something that is taken seriously. I think there have been funders who have been spending down for a long time, so there's precedent for that. But, the majority are pretty conservative about wanting to preserve their endowments at times when the endowments are already shrinking because it's the market, often, that accentuates the conservatism.
Tim Cynova:
That article is really interesting, with some stats that I hadn't seen before. For those working in the space, it might not be new. For those unfamiliar with it, usually foundations give out about 5% a year of their investment corpus, and the idea, the Wallace Fund was arguing, up it to 10%.
Tim Cynova:
The really interesting thing that I found was, of the 85, 86,000 private foundations, with about $900 billion in assets, and for every additional percentage point, it's about $12.5 billion in added foundation spending a year. The article in the USA Today was arguing, or proposing, not an indefinite requirement to go to 10%, but if you do this over, say, a three year, where everyone had to give 10%, it would throw of an additional $800 billion, maybe it's $200 billion. My math this morning just isn't fast enough for this.
Lauren Ruffin:
Yeah, I think it was two, with a lot of zeroes behind it.
Tim Cynova:
Yeah.
Alexis Frasz:
Yeah. But, I think the other piece of that is, what are they going to spend it on? We work with a lot of foundations, and I think they do the best they can. I think right now, a lot of foundations are really struggling with that Hunger Games feeling, of who do we pick to survive and who doesn't get to survive. But, the reality is that the majority of philanthropy goes to the margins, it goes to the Band-Aids of the problems that are actually structural.
Alexis Frasz:
I think we also need to have a conversation about how philanthropy actually supports the systems change that we need, so that the problems don't exist 10 years from now, and not just spreading the money around a little bit further than they're doing right now.
Lauren Ruffin:
I'm holding a couple of different things, at the same time. One, being what we're seeing with PPP, and with government support. They said 95% of black businesses were locked out of the Paycheck Protection Program. And that, over the last couple years, a lot of friends, Ashford Schultz, Hebrews Unite, all these organizations have sprung up, talking about the lack of capital for limited minority businesses, generally. And it's becoming pretty clear that the philanthropic sector, as you know, and as the work Helicon's done, is remarkably discriminatory towards black and brown people, the data has not really moved a whole lot.
Lauren Ruffin:
But, at the same time with the disappearance of traditional debt funding, or CTFI money, it's like philanthropy might be the only place where small businesses, black and brown businesses, non-profits, can actually find capital for some of the systems change work. For me right now, this is one of those moments of urgency that I'm hearing, but I don't know if I'm seeing the dollars flow as quickly as they probably should in this crisis.
Alexis Frasz:
I don't know. You're probably right, I'm sure they're not flowing as fast as they could or should. Definitely, I don't think they're flowing to the organizations that are doing systems change in the quantities of money that need to be there for systems change. I think that we know the Center for Cultural Innovation, we know is spending some money on entities that are trying to prototype new models for getting capital to communities in different ways, and looking at worker cooperatives, for example, and things like that, that they're prototyping. The money needs to flow in much bigger quantities, and much faster to those types of things, to really make a systems change.
Tim Cynova:
I've been making space to meditate, and contemplate if I were in the role of foundation president, sitting on assets. I think, to your earlier point, those working in foundations are caring, they care about the work that they do, the people that they work with, and often times are working with systems themselves, that they're struggling with speed and innovation.
Tim Cynova:
But I was thinking, in this moment in time, this feels different. And would I, as the foundation president, argue for we need to spend as much money as we possibly can right now, to try and move the needle on this? First is, continue to drip it out in perpetuity, essentially. Essentially, go big or go home. What might that mean for us to actually effect change, rather than hitting around the edges if you will? I don't have a perfect answer, I'm glad I'm not in a foundation president role right now, but it has been this thought experiment that I've been wrestling with.
Tim Cynova:
If you found yourself in the role of being a foundation president with $10 billion or so, how might you approach that?
Alexis Frasz:
Unequivocally, I think now is the time to spend the money. I think both for the crisis that we're in, which is not just COVID. I think COVID is the spark that lit the fire, but we know that ... Naomi Klein, who I love, the comedian journalist who talks a lot about climate change and systems, talks about how NORML was a crisis for a lot of people. It is, and I think that, especially with climate coming down more on us, I think now is the time to make the changes that we need to make so that we can have the better future that we know is possible.
Alexis Frasz:
I think there's the crisis piece of it, but there's also the opportunity piece of it, as I was saying. I mean, I think there's a lot of things that are already moving that need a push, and with a push could really tip things. Whether it's politically, or in terms of the social safety nets that we have which never should be in the realm of foundations, permanently. That's something that the money will never be enough as we're seeing, even with the bailout bill. We need that to be something that's institutionalized in our system.
Tim Cynova:
We're going to circle back to a question from a friend of the show, a friend of ours. For those organizations just coming to a more systems view in this pandemic, what are some "ways in" to that thinking that you suggest from your own practice?
Alexis Frasz:
Oh, tough question from a friend. We're always part of multiple systems, so we've got our family system, we think in systems all the time, we're just not conscious that we are. But, we're part of our neighborhood, we're part of our organization, and the art system, and then the bigger system, so I think it can be interesting to map that, and just really understand who you influence, and what influence you're having.
Alexis Frasz:
I think the arts has been really interesting because they think of their own system as a system, but they don't see the lower down entities, like the artists, or the people, as part of their system, and they don't see the big meta systems. So, the arts tends to think it can influence its own system without attending to those other things. I think it's really, in some ways, just about listening and reflecting, first and foremost, about influence.
Lauren Ruffin:
Also, in the systems thinking, I've always found it helpful to really inventory all the assumptions that go into it, into what you think a system is. I'm wondering, are you seeing people making assumptions about what's going to happen next that are impacting their ability to act right now? So for instance, the assumption that we are going to open up again, or that things are going to go back to normal.
Alexis Frasz:
I do. I mean, I think a friend of ours that Tim knows, Josh Yates, and right of the beginning of this he said, "People are either relating to this as a snow day, a long winter, or an Ice Age." Depending on how you see it depends completely ... I mean, it completely changes how you act. I think we're all knowing now that we're not in a snow day, it's gone on too long. But, I think the idea of it being this is just a long winter, and then we'll open back up and things are the same, more or less. Or, is this a fundamental shift in paradigms of how we live?
Alexis Frasz:
I think those really do affect the way we're dealing with it. I think I'm firmly in the Ice Age camp, even though that's a dire metaphor because I think there's a lot of beauty that actually could come out of this. But, I think now's the time to start preparing for that. Some of that is, really, part of it is what do we want to keep, what's essential right now, and what do we need to let go of, either because it doesn't serve us anymore or it's just not going to work in the future that we see coming to be now.
Alexis Frasz:
There's a lot of grief in that, that I think needs to be acknowledged, and a lot of fear about the unknown, which is I think why people try to hang onto the thing we're used to, is its better than the alternative. But, maybe it's not better than the alternative, and maybe we can make a better alternative if we step into that unknown space, but it's scary.
Lauren Ruffin:
I'm also wondering along those same lines of Ice Age, what are some of the beautiful things that you think can come out of this, practically?
Alexis Frasz:
Well, some of it we're already seeing. It's like that quote of "the future's already here, it's not evenly distributed." It's the mutual aid stuff that is coming out of this, on a community level, where people are seeing their system, they're seeing that. That's always been something that, I think, vulnerable communities that haven't had ... Whether its rural communities, I'm from a really rural place, or communities of color, or immigrant communities have always supported each other that way so that's beautiful, I think.
Alexis Frasz:
I think that the many, many entities and organizations that have worked, both in the arts and not building the grassroots social structure, that is now being called on to support their communities, and we're seeing the relevance of that, and how that protects and cares for people. The awareness around the care economy, and the care work, I think is really positive.
Alexis Frasz:
Then, ideally, the bigger portico shifts, and shifts in systems that we were talking about before. I mean, I do really see that as a possibility if we push for it.
Lauren Ruffin:
The caring economy is ... I was talking to Jeff Solomon a couple weeks ago, and was lamenting the fact that I wasn't ... not lamenting, actually not being super close to my family. But, I was saying that if I were closer, the interactions we'd be having would be so much different. Now, I'm realizing that I'm using capital in exchange for care, so instead of bringing groceries to my aunt's house, I'm sending groceries. There's this weird thing that's happening about how care shows up.
Lauren Ruffin:
I'm also thinking a lot about what's happening on reservations right now. So many folks on reservations out here in New Mexico don't have running water. One of the interesting infrastructure pieces, because they don't have water, they've been doing water deliveries for years. There's been members of the community who are now working with Dig Deep and other organizations, but in some ways that system that was already in place as a form of long care mutual aid, is in some ways a guiding light, or one of very few positive spots in what's happening on reservations right now. I'm really hopeful about the strength of those systems, that have been an outcrop of the failure of government to provide running water in the United States. But, they're there, thank goodness.
Alexis Frasz:
Well, and you're making an interesting point because it's like, how do we not make those systems the only safety net that people have? But also, not try to replace them with capital or with government, so that people don't have those systems? Because there's something, beyond just getting your basic needs met, that comes from those. I mean, there's a sense of community trust, and camaraderie, and connectedness that comes from that. On both sides, on the giver and the receiver side, which often goes back and forth, so I think that's really beautiful.
Lauren Ruffin:
I was talking to a friend in the Bay Area who runs a large, regenerative food organization, a startup. She said something that surprised me yesterday, around our food system. In essence, everything I've read [inaudible 00:18:01] the US food system is completely screwed. But she said, actually, when you boil it down to its basics, in terms of most people being able to get the calories they need to survive a day, our system isn't working. She was like, "So many of us think about the system as being are you having healthy food, organic food, and everything else." She's like, "But in a crisis, you have to go back to the basic level, so it is working."
Lauren Ruffin:
I was so surprised by that perspective because she's a plant-forward, super healthy, organic person. Are there things that have surprised you, in the last few months?
Alexis Frasz:
That are working?
Lauren Ruffin:
That are working, things that your early prediction said this shit's going to ... That was my first curse word.
Tim Cynova:
Oh, God. Oh no, now I've got to go back and do it.
Alexis Frasz:
I was wondering about curses, because I curse a lot, too.
Lauren Ruffin:
Yeah, that was my first one.
Tim Cynova:
This is the benefit of us having a podcast prior to the livestream, because you can edit those things out before they go online. The livestream, you're living on the edge a little bit, which stresses me out.
Lauren Ruffin:
Poor Tim. But, are there things that you thought, systems that you were fairly certain that would break, that have actually held up?
Alexis Frasz:
Yeah, I don't know. I think, in some ways it's too early to tell. Right now, we're seeing the breakdown of more of them. I think, in some ways the artists that are coming together around mutual aid is so, just heartening. You guys probably know about the Level Up work that Taylor Mac started, the getting well known artists to do things online, and then have people pay for that. But then, giving the money to people who are not well known.
Alexis Frasz:
I think just the idea that none of these artists are rich, that they're going beyond asking philanthropy for the money that they need, to finding the support for themselves, and I think that's how artists have always worked. But, in this time, you would expect that to break down, and it didn't. If anything, I think it's strengthening.
Tim Cynova:
Alexis, what are you doing for your own resilience and self care right now? Is it similar, is it different, from what it was three months ago?
Alexis Frasz:
It's pretty similar. I mean, I think other than spending time with friends, but I meditate daily. I bike also, Tim, cycle. I'm actually supposed to be training for the AIDS Life Cycle right now, which got canceled but I'm still trying to keep up my fitness, and not let everything go all to waste.
Alexis Frasz:
It's funny, though, I actually have a problem with the word self care, just the concept as it's used in our culture. Because I think that it is typically presented as you do the things that kill you during the day, you work really hard or whatever, then you have to care for yourself. Then, that's separate from all the other things you do, which are caring for others, doing your work in the world. I think this is my edge, because I'm not always good at this, but for me it's about how can we have a more integrated life, where care is woven into it, and we're not burning ourselves out. That's part of the paradigm of our culture, it's that extractive mindset where it's like, I can burn myself out, and then I just rebuild myself up again, so I can do it again tomorrow.
Alexis Frasz:
I'm trying to make more space in my days, and I think especially with the Zoom life, we have to do that. Make more space in your days to go out in the garden, or take a walk, or talk to our friend, or whatever it is, and not feel guilty about that.
Tim Cynova:
I think this is one of the things that I'm hopeful for. At the same time that, now that people's lives, and work, and caring, and everything is all in one place for most people, and that can be really hazardous, and toxic if people now have homes that are toxic workplaces. It does, on a certain level, give people an opportunity to see all of these things together in a way that, when you went to the office, you could separate that thing. My hope is that people have space to question, why is it that I do all of these things in this way? Is this how I want my life to be? Where do I have agency to change things, in order to create ... We've talked about this, the three of us, before, a place where everyone can thrive, but that really aligns with our values, and sense of purpose if that's important to us.
Tim Cynova:
But, I think you're right, these often have lived in different buckets, and you try to make sure that they all work in concert, and now all those buckets are in the same place.
Alexis Frasz:
The other thing I'll just say about that is I think that, when we're talking about the world we want to create, if we're trying to really create the new, which I think we're in that space of the cycle, we can only do that from a place of being transformed internally, and being stable, being grounded, being heartful, all of that.
Alexis Frasz:
It's not just a because it makes us feel good thing, it's for the effectiveness of the work we're trying to do in the world, we have to work on ourselves and be transformed from that extractive lifestyle.
Lauren Ruffin:
Also, I have similar issues with the term self care. I keep thinking, going back to the mutual aid piece, it's been cool to see so many of my friends be awakened to how they can ... A lot of my friends are lawyers, lobbyists, people who are more accustomed to writing a check than to actually getting their hands dirty with work. And seeing them awakened to the pleasures of actually lending a hand in their community, that's not the requirement of pro-bono hours or anything else, has been so cool talking to them about it. I think that's just a really important component.
Lauren Ruffin:
I hope that service and community involvement becomes core to a lot more peoples how they spend their time during the day.
Tim Cynova:
Well, speaking of transformation from this moment, we're coming up on time. This means, Lauren, it's time for your suitcase question.
Lauren Ruffin:
Dun dun dun. It's starting to take on, as you introduce it, this ominous quality. It's just, your suitcase question.
Tim Cynova:
It's probably the mic I'm using, I'm sorry.
Lauren Ruffin:
Yeah, I like it. It adds a little something.
Lauren Ruffin:
So Alexis, you've been carrying around a suitcase with you for your whole life, there's stuff that's been in there for years, behaviors, habits, things you do every day, ways you work, that during the pandemic you realize you don't need anymore, and they're never going back in your suitcase. Conversely, there are probably some behaviors, and habits, and things that you have fallen in love with during the pandemic, and that you're going to do from now on. Can you give us one thing that's coming out of your suitcase, and one thing that's going in your suitcase?
Alexis Frasz:
I think coming out would be control, the idea that I can be in control of the world, and my world, so flowing with life a little bit more. Because right now, we just can't control anything.
Alexis Frasz:
Then, going in, I think what we've been talking about with this embodied living. I think being in my garden is just so incredible, and I think finding ways so that the energy in and of the practice comes into my life, my work life more and infuses it, I think is really a key piece of what I want to practice going forward.
Tim Cynova:
Awesome. Alexis, it's always wonderful spending time with you.
Alexis Frasz:
Yeah.
Lauren Ruffin:
Yes.
Alexis Frasz:
It's so good to see you guys.
Tim Cynova:
Yeah, thanks for being on the show.
Alexis Frasz:
Thank you for having me.
Tim Cynova:
Continue with the Work Shouldn't Suck Live adventure with us, on our next episode, when we're joined by Marc Bamuthi Joseph and Lisa Yancey. Miss us in the meantime? You can download more Work Shouldn't Suck episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice, and re-watch Work Shouldn't Suck Live episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co.
Tim Cynova:
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