Live with Bamuthi & Lisa Yancey! (EP.36)
Last Updated
May 10, 2020
Work. Shouldn't. Suck. LIVE: The Morning(ish) Show with special guests Marc Bamuthi Joseph and Lisa Yancey. [Live show recorded: May 8, 2020.]
Guests: Marc Bamuthi Joseph and Lisa Yancey
Co-Hosts: Tim Cynova & Lauren Ruffin
Guests
LISA YANCEY is a strategist, social impact entrepreneur, community builder, and visionary who believes that people build legacies in a lifetime. Originally from Atlanta, Georgia, Lisa Yancey is the president Yancey Consulting (YC) and co-founder of SorsaMED and The We’s Match. With 18 years of practice, YC has served over 100 nonprofit organizations, grantmakers, and individuals. Advising across arts and culture, public space, and justice-based sectors, YC specializes in strategic organizational development, economic modeling, evaluation and assessments, board development, leadership coaching, and executive transition support. SorsaMED is a biotechnology company engineering cannabinoids infused with nutrient-enriched microalgae for therapeutic pain management, with a specific concern for sickle cell anemia sufferers, especially youth. The We’s Match is dedicated to the wealth, scale, and wellness of Black women entrepreneurs. We match these entrepreneurs with resources and capital for business growth and success. Lisa’s dedication to supporting equitable outcomes for systemically disenfranchised people is the seamless thread that binds these companies. Three essential philosophies drive Lisa’s work. One, we must disrupt patterns that either sustain or are complicit to inequities that challenge any person’s or group’s ability to be their full selves. Two, we will never accomplish sustainable goals looking solely in the short-term. She touts, “It is imperative to assess and set generational impact goals (20-25 years from now) that connect to present-day efforts.” The third is best captured in Lilla Watson’s declaration, “If you have come here to help me you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound with mine, then let us work together.” Lisa believes, “I am one of WE.” Lisa matriculated from Boston College Law School and Emory University. She is a former dancer and choreographer. She is also a member of the New York State Bar Association. Lisa currently lives in Mount Vernon, New York, and serves on the board of Fractured Atlas.
MARC BAMUTHI JOSEPH is a 2017 TED Global Fellow, an inaugural recipient of the Guggenheim Social Practice initiative, and an honoree of the United States Artists Rockefeller Fellowship. He is also the winner of the 2011 Herb Alpert Award in Theatre, and an inaugural recipient of the Doris Duke Performing Artist Award. In pursuit of affirmations of black life in the public realm, he co-founded the Life is Living Festival for Youth Speaks, and created the installation “Black Joy in the Hour of Chaos” for Creative Time. Joseph’s opera libretto, We Shall Not Be Moved, was named one of 2017’s “Best Classical Music Performances” by The New York Times. His evening length work, /peh-LO-tah/, successfully toured across North America for three years, including at BAM’s Harvey Theater as a part of the 2017 Next Wave Festival. His piece, “The Just and the Blind” investigates the crisis of over-sentencing in the prison industrial complex, and premiered at a sold out performance at Carnegie Hall in March 2019. Bamuthi is currently at work on commissions for the Perelman Center, Yale University, and the Washington National Opera as well as a new collaboration with NYC Ballet Artistic Director Wendy Whelan. Formerly the Chief of Program and Pedagogy at YBCA in San Francisco, Bamuthi currently serves as the Vice President and Artistic Director of Social Impact at The Kennedy Center.
Transcript
Tim Cynova:
Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Works Shouldn't Suck Live, the morning-ish show. On today's episode, Lauren Ruffin and I are joined by another amazing duo of humans, Marc Bamuthi Joseph and Lisa Yancey. Lisa is a strategist, social impact entrepreneur, community builder and visionary who believes that people build legacies in lifetime. She is the president of Yancey Consulting and co-founder of SorsaMED and The We's Match, and is one of the most incredible people that I know.
Tim Cynova:
Bamuthi is a 2017 TED global fellow, an inaugural recipient of the Guggenheim Social Practice Initiative, and an honoree of the United States Artists Rockefeller Fellowship. While managing a successful artistic career. Bamuthi also proudly serves as vice president and Artistic Director of Social Impact at Washington DC's Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts. Without further ado, Bamuthi and Lisa, welcome to the show.
Bamuthi:
Hey.
Lisa Yancey:
Hey.
Bamuthi:
[inaudible 00:01:01]. Good morning, ish.
Lauren Ruffin:
Good morning. So it's so good to see both of your faces here this morning. Our first question to our guests is always, how are you and how is your community doing during this pandemic?
Lisa Yancey:
I'll start on that one. I am wonderfully well. I'm just grateful for health, let's start there. The fact that I can be here and have this conversation with each of you. My community and my communities because they're plural, grateful are well. My family is primarily in Atlanta with the crazy governor, I can just say that. They're actually doing well, so I'm happy about that. And I'm happy to be in New York with, I feel like one of the best governors that's showing up in that state and showing what to do. So all is good here.
Bamuthi:
I'm in Oakland, California, so my geographical community is also benefiting from progressive political leadership. I would say that when I think about community in terms of racial demographics specifically, I would say that our community is reeling. Just given the proportion of infection in the black community, the impact of COVID on the prison population, and of course the trauma of Ahmaud Arbery's killings and murdering in Georgia. So these are complex times, for sure but all of these factors of ... and the intersectionality don't stop.
Lauren Ruffin:
I've been thinking a lot about the racial timeline of this pandemic because it does seem to me that the reactions ... and I'm holding two things at once. One is that we have very, very little data about this virus, real tangible data, but the data that we have says that it's obviously just killing black and brown people primarily because of poor health opportunities and preexisting conditions.
Lauren Ruffin:
As people are realizing that black people are dying, it's like, let's open this thing back up and just let them continue to die, and the lack of value on black lives even during a pandemic seems to really be coming to the fore right now.
Bamuthi:
Beautifully said. I don't want to be reductive and I don't want to say that I speak for the entire black community but-
Lauren Ruffin:
You don't?
Bamuthi:
[crosstalk 00:03:07] direct response.
Lauren Ruffin:
That's why we invited you here, to speak for all of us.
Bamuthi:
Thanks. Normally, that's what I do. That's part of the gig of being a black intellectual of the arts. [inaudible 00:03:20].
Lisa Yancey:
I think that in this piece of the conversation is that the fact that it didn't just start with this pandemic. I'm very mindful in all of our conversations that this Black Lives Matter, this is pre and unfortunately it is pre. And so, what we expect, so Lauren, you're surprised, people are still devaluing lives. It's not a surprise for me because this isn't necessarily the kind of disruptor that's going to create a-ha in human value and equity.
Lisa Yancey:
I know that where I am, I don't like to lose hope because hopes not strategy. But for lack of a better word, where I'm hoping that we do the work for enhance mindfulness of our preexisting conditions and the results of that enhanced mindfulness, of staying present to the inequities that consistently exist. The weaponization that happens simply to support the enhance mindfulness that just because we start seeing where we are work globally, we can all be impacted by a virus that the inequities still exist and continue to and that what we're going to do about it. So, not leave it at COVID cause it didn't start with COVID.
Lauren Ruffin:
So Lisa, I know that you run a number of organizations that are remote and dispersed, but mostly I know less about how you work. But I am curious about as folks who manage, has the pandemic shifted your style of work or your leadership style?
Lisa Yancey:
I thought the pandemic has done ... because as you know, I've worked remotely before COVID-19. Yancy consulting is 19 years old this year and so there's this notion of being mobile in the part of work. What the pandemic has done, it's like now everyone is remote. So at least there were moments where you had meetings in place in different places and so it created a different rhythm of how much time I spend in front of a computer talking to people, the energetic exchange. That is a part of the communication that happens when you're facilitating and provoking and opening up and ideating together. We have to find how to find that energy in this modality, that's changed. I feel like my day starts on Mondays and don't end until that day [inaudible 00:05:42]It just starts and I'm like, okay. After I opened up our conversation, like it ends. And so I'm feeling that and density of engagement that's different
Lauren Ruffin:
What about you Bamuthi?
Bamuthi:
As a performing artist so much of my value, so much of my currency is in my body. I spent the better part of really the last 20 years moving from space to space because what I do hopefully is transformed space with word or with movement. Chemistry and just kind of the chemical transformation of sweat of idea launched into intimate spaces. So part of my work is gathering people, but the work where I feel probably most fulfilled is in embodying ideas and transformation. So without my physical body present, with gigs canceled because my physical labor and my physical presence has been my currency in the marketplace. Not only have I had to practically reevaluate, but also philosophically reevaluate just what the value of my body is.
Bamuthi:
Which given the earlier part of the conversation is itself a charged concept. But it's true. So I think that's been the thing. It's just working with presenters, with producers, with organizers to try to figure out if I'm not going to be physically on your stage, how much are these same words worth? We're all trying to figure out the economy of that together. Then COVID is impacted me specifically in terms of administrative job because the Kennedy center has furloughed just about 70% of its staff for what I would call physically responsible reasons. So many of us are in transition also trying to figure out what the value of our work is. What's the difference between the work and the job. Without the job, how does the work continue. Without a place, without context like this and how do some of the things that we were doing in social impact at the Kennedy center still resonate if that is in the container for our principles. So currency, the body, the ephemerality of all these ideas and just trying to figure out how to put a kind of value statement on these valued to principles.
Tim Cynova:
I want to highlight some love coming from our chat. "Some of our greatest minds and hearts here. Thank you for the comment. I totally agree."
Bamuthi:
-singing
Lisa Yancey:
As you were talking, bare with you. So those who know me know that I have a background in dance and those who know me as a facilitator know that often I talk about how I moved from my body and the center of where I feel it starts in my cavity. And I know that those who may not move in the body, cause there are a lot of visual based and other types of discipline-based artists and creators and innovators, engineers, entrepreneurs probably listen to this as well and create different modalities. As you were talking [inaudible 00:08:51] I was thinking about how this idea of this sheltering in place even [inaudible 00:08:57] I feel that this notion of social distancing as oxymoronic. Like social but be distant, what does that mean? Again what does it mean for those of us who are socially quarantine distant by themselves, i.e. me. In a home where you live and move in the body and you engage energetically in space.
Lisa Yancey:
And so there's a work element of those who practice and in their practice their currency is directly connected to their physical being informed. And then there's the regular human, "where are my people at? Can we hang, and have drinks, and laugh, and kick it, and decompress in mining all the craziness." Cause that's a part of our emotional equalizer and anchoring. That body piece is lost too. So we can talk about our work and our leadership, but we're straight up humans and this too, and how all are managing the post-traumatic realities that's going to happen as a result of this.
Lisa Yancey:
That those of us who are actively and consciously mining our balance and presence are just kind of putting in our bodies. Like its in our bodies, we're holding this in our bodies and so where are we going to have those release? Great, thank God for D-nice and other kinds of dance party. [inaudible 00:10:16] I'm like, I'm dancing around in my own house still by myself and being excite about someone else clicking a join with a heart. So these technologies becoming this translation where our translation would be verbal, physical sweats, emotional passion. That's not being fed. That definitely is playing into all that we do.
Tim Cynova:
I totally second the comment about the dopeness, that is Lisa Yancy here. Well Lisa can I tag onto this one because you and your incredible colleague Jolita have been hosting weekly online community gatherings every Friday. You described them as spaces that are designed for individuals to ideate, be heard, find breath, just be, just sit. You've been doing this for a number of weeks. What's resonating from these convenings that that you're bringing together?
Lisa Yancey:
I think the biggest thing that resonates from those conversations is love. I want to just say that. There's so much love internally. We decided we wanted to facilitate a space that is open for anyone who may or may not want to join, it as a no pressure zone. Typically when I work, I say language likes ... one of the agreements is," silence is not consent". So I expect you to actually use your voice to hear, but in this space you can be completely wherever you are in silence and that we all bring intellectual assets that is not just ... doesn't live in one place. So how do we aggregate and accumulate all of those assets that we hold from all of our experiences. It's been a beautiful space where across ... What, they're four time zones in the United States? At least three times zones show up every week and from all over. People coming together just to talk about whatever they want to talk about. We don't lead with titles. You just show up however you are and just comes together so it's love. It's lots of love.
Lisa Yancey:
When you get to the end of the week when you've been here zoned out, you've been to much. It doesn't feel like I'm in another, it's not another, it is like our home and that energy that I referenced earlier that's being compromised where I can't kick it with my girls. I can't ... I'm a traveling human. I am a wondering earth person and I've been grounded. I feel like I'm in the corner, someone put Lisa in a corner. Lisa don't do well in corners. But these conversations allow us to be across space and [inaudible 00:12:40] I'm grateful for everyone who joins and the ideas that get shared in that thing.
Tim Cynova:
Bamuthi, one of your TED talks, a quote is, "soccer is like the only thing on this planet that we can all agree to do together. It's like the official sport of the spinning ball." I'm wondering, I think that was maybe two or three years ago that you gave that talk. You also talked about creating a sports space. Political action curriculum for youth that uses, among other things, the politics of joy. As you think about that talk that you gave a couple of years ago, the politics of joy coming together around something like soccer or share to humanity on this globe. What's resonating for you right now in this moment?
Bamuthi:
The program that we did was in partnership with the Guggenheim and it came out of my residency there and the company of [Pilloton 00:13:30] and I were able to work in schools and around the country from Maui to Raleigh, North Carolina to the Bronx. I'm working with immigrant youth around what we call the politics of joy. And part of the impetus there was my first blood memory of joy was scoring a goal on the soccer field when I was maybe five or six years old. I don't know if any of you watch professional football or ever seen the reaction of an amateur or professional football player after they score. It's probably the closest thing to total mania that we can kind of share in public. So the premise was if we can locate or co-located an exposure to culture in that same space where joy is kind of ingested and manifested, then we're creating a kind of psychic continuum. Where folks who have been marginalized because of their immigrant status or because of their first generation status can understand that the culture that they bring, the culture that they love has some continuity in terms of a sheltering from the outside world.
Bamuthi:
When I think broadly about the politics of joy, Lisa mentioned the club quarantine and the versus concerts have been great. The whole Baby Face versus Teddy Riley thing tomorrow night. Jill Scott versus Eric about Duke. That's the appointment viewing at this point. Those are the spaces where we can feel like we do have some level of cultural synthesis besides the cutthroat politics. I welcome the opportunity to continue to design those spaces to move them from kind of the secular tactile space to the virtual space and then eventually back to kind of the live co-located space. In that design of live co-located space is going to be really important. Lisa mentioned, talked about a collective trauma that we're experiencing and some thing that I think she and I both believe in is that we can design our way to joy. That the arts sector and the vector of arts spaces have been the places where we've decided that design is most resonant and most viable. So that's the thing that I look forward to building, hopefully in intention around the community design where joy isn't so political. That joy is the healing act that ameliorates the trauma that we're all experiencing.
Tim Cynova:
We have a question. I'm going to throw it up here and read it. What if interdependence becomes trendy, just for this moment? Do you have recommendations for how we can fold interdependence into the DNA of our institutions and organizations? Thanks for the questions. Thanks for the amazing chat that's going on right here. Our guests can't see this, but it's exciting. So back to the question.
Bamuthi:
Lisa and I worked on this project, a fledgling project, where we essentially were co-visioning, the unification of a performing arts center, a performing arts organization, and a visual arts organization in Brooklyn a number of years ago. I had the privilege and the opportunity of suggesting what the administrative structure, do you remember this Lisa?
Lisa Yancey:
Yep, totally.
Bamuthi:
The administrative structure might be in, we talked about an executive director, but we talked about a director of the political imagination. We talked about a director of art framed economies and we talked about a director of creative excellence. We said that the curation of this art space would need those three working in concert with their community. So creative excellence, art framed economies, and the political imagination.
Bamuthi:
So to respond to the question, which I think is a poignant one, we cannot extract out of this moment the DNA or the genetics that precipitated it. But we can be future thinking about how we reorganize leadership structures and the purpose and mandates, certainly of our performing arts center, but just our cultural centers period. So you might've had a director of the performing arts, you might've had someone that curated dance and those positions are going to be incredibly necessary. But if the proscenium theater or the gallery is still the beating heart of your organization after this is over, then you're doing it wrong. We have a new mandate to bring people together in a different kind of way. So we can't be politically inert. We can't not think about our financial acuity as it relates to our organizations and we also have to spark not just the political imagination, but the creative imagination too. I don't think it's as much of a DNA question as it is a mutation. Now that we're all X-Men, what's our superpower going to be.
Lisa Yancey:
An exploit men. So what I'll add to this adultness of a movie is what he's saying is this notion of trend period. There is nothing that is singulary reliant on itself. Nothing. Everything relies on something else. I think one of the first anchors to even getting to a place where you can reimagine structurally whether it's leadership, whether it's departmental engagement, whether it's cross culture and community, whether it's residency, if you don't hold as an anchor value, the notion of the interdependence and togetherness as a core alliance for your whole existence, then your thinking has been completely compromised. Anything else that follows from that is shallow and can't even be recruited because you can't even to identify where you are in relationships with others and where collectively you hold strength. I've had two conversations this week while with an individual an amazing artists. We talked about togetherness and the importance of togetherness and how this is amplifying and could be amplifying the opportunity for us to strengthen our practice and valuing of togetherness, not as a hobby.
Lisa Yancey:
Not as a thing you do on the side. Not as a program, a separate party. But the togetherness as a core understanding of how you function and where your value proposition as an institution and as individuals and those institutions live.The other conversation was about the connectivity tissue. One of those conversations is that ... it was a conversation of different cohorts that are allied solidarity, but still within the silos of those various different areas and what we haven't done and strengthening from an infrastructure place, the practice and tools around the connectivity tissue of that interdependence. So interdependence is language without tools. We need to strengthen the tools of how we apply interdependence that's beyond an intellectual framework and that the value of how we understand whether we're hitting our [formers 00:20:30] indicators or whatever thing, our milestones, whatever that thing is. If it isn't hinge on what's happening with others within the ecosystem of your existence. Then it's compromised. It's shallow. It is not maximizing its potential results. I think our work is to build the tools and the language and the constructions for that connectivity tissue to not just be an idea.
Tim Cynova:
Sorry, what to toss it to the social impact question. I just want to take a moment. There are moments of my life when I think, "how the hell did I get here?" This just happens to be one of them, where you realize, I don't know what sequence of events led me to be able to be sitting and listening to this conversation but this is really amazing. With that over, it's a two parter here. Both of you work on social impact. The question here is, "Can you please define what that has meant and the opportunities and the pitfalls?"
Lisa Yancey:
Way to Go Suhly.
Bamuthi:
If I may, how we define social impact at the Kennedy center, I define impact more by our processes than outcomes. So I think a community engagement paradigm, which is where I've lived in the performing arts sector, kind of the intersection of performance curation and community engagement generally that has been measured. The effectiveness has been measured by how many folks are in the room. But what I've learned from elders, mentors and through experience is that it's impacted and much less about how many people, but how you treat people. How materially the processes have enough integrity that folks are able to organize without you. So providing conduits in a healthy way, in a way with integrity for folks to be empowered in their bodies, particularly in marginalized communities. I think they're in, those are the opportunities and the pitfalls. The larger an organization is generally the further away it is from skin in the game. There is no impact on an institutional level if there isn't shared risk and shared accountability.
Bamuthi:
So I would say that. I would also say that I'm currently making a work. I'm making an opera, Bill T Jones is directing this commission it a new performing arts center in New York. The opera is scheduled to premiere, I want to say in 21, 22. I have no idea whether building an opera right now is the right thing to do, because the opera that I'm writing requires like 60 people to be on stage and you'd imagine hundreds of people in the audience. So impact work means I think, deploying artists in a different way so that maybe instead of making work for proscenium, some artists are being deployed in systems innovations through the lens or through the conduit of these institutions. So that we're thinking as artfully about what happens outside of a theater using the resources of the theater as what happens inside of the proscenium stage as well. Impact is about redirection of creative resources to rethink our shared culture.
Lisa Yancey:
What I'll add. When I think about impact, ultimately I think about whomever the system wasn't designed for. Are they having the ... do we, because I've [inaudible 00:23:57] live in what we often in our language called margins, but I want to just give it a little jargon, ultimately impact me is that everybody gets to live the life they imagine themselves.
Tim Cynova:
Amen.
Lisa Yancey:
Full stop. Impact means that everyone, everyone gets to live the life that they imagined for themselves. That opportunities are presented for you to show up in your whole self with all of your differences. With all of our differences, none of it being a measurement and defining of what is or isn't normal. All of those constructions is compared to some kind of creative singular center and I believe that social impact is when we have an inclusive society where everyone has the opportunity to live their best lives.
Lisa Yancey:
In terms of pitfalls and opportunities. I think that we are in, we have been, I'm [inaudible 00:24:49] on my language about elevating COVID and this pandemic as more than a disruptor as fracturing, some vague understanding. But there have been and consistently has been inequities and different realities that has compromised people's ability to live their best lives consistently, systematically, pragmatically, emotionally, health, lots of them financially. So in terms of opportunities and pitfalls, I think that we've been moving in an opportunity to de-center the singularity of things. This no binary, black, white, gay, straight, female, male. We've been doing that work. To untangle and embrace more fluidity and even getting language and tools around intersectionality that we need to continue to do to eviscerate the centering of anything. Even the idea of inclusion [crosstalk 00:25:41] because inclusion center something to be included in. That in itself is problematic, because you're saying your outside and you set this thing as the standard of which you want to become a part of.
Lisa Yancey:
That's problematic and so I think the opportunity is to just continue to interrogate all of those constructions that doesn't allow for the fluidity and variety. The pitfall would be is to fall into a place where even in our language that feels like we are just begin to mirror the same type of exclusionary practice that sensor's a single thing. It can seem like an unintended consequence of being righteous and still hold behaviors that we haven't shed enough of. Stay transparent and embracing of difference.
Lauren Ruffin:
A couple of things are really clear. One, as Tim said, amazing conversation. Two, if we get renewed for season two by our distributor, y'all will have to be our first guests up. There's so much more that we got to talk about, but we do have to wind this episode down. So I'll leave you with a question, a little dreaming question, I suppose. Your entire life you've been carrying around a suitcase, a figurative suitcase that's got all of these habits, behaviors, things you've always done to center yourself. So the question is, what's one thing that has been in your suitcase for a long time that's coming out? What's one new habit behavior thing you do, practice that you're holding dear, that you're going to put into that suitcase for the rest of your life coming out of the pandemic?
Bamuthi:
I know one thing that's coming out of my suitcase is dumb ass Facebook friends. You know, I've been on social media more because I'm at the crib. You know what I'm saying. I'm shocked by how many of my Facebook "friends" are conspiracy theorists. Listen, I voted for Elizabeth Warren in the primary here. You know what I'm saying? I was set to ride for Bernie, but Mike Flynn is free and unemployment is at 15%. all y'all that are just like riding for you got to earn my vote people and all the conspiracy Plandemic people got to go. Yelling at Facebook, dumb ass Facebook.
Lauren Ruffin:
Unnoticed.
Bamuthi:
They are gone. What am I keeping? Smoothies. The mornings are a little bit longer, they're a little bit more luxurious and there isn't the need for coffee like there used to be, so smoothies. Getting rid of you my conspiracy theorist marginal ass. Okay. Yep, go! I'm kidding here.
Lisa Yancey:
What I'm taking out of the suitcase is oppressing the more urgency idea that just got to get done. It's got to happen. They have to ... I have to deliver this thing out because for a whole bunch of reasons that could be a whole another point. I won't go to that. But I'm putting in and keeping that has replaced that sense of urgency is the stillness and you said luxurious, Bamuthi. A luxury, I actually want to take it out of it being luxurious because it feels like it's exceptional. Like its something that happens on occasion. I want to keep in my long conversations with my family, my nieces and nephews that I didn't ever have time for. Now have Sunday conversations with my nephew every Sunday. No matter what. I find these WhatsApp me, I am available no matter what. I could be in a meeting and someone who I care about almost, I'll answer it and, "just like a minute I'll call you back." I don't just leave it. I'm keeping in the human connections as the priority and the work. Time is in the service of us. So remembering that not getting lost in deliverables, but staying connected to love even if it feels like it's a whatever. I've never been the one to call like professional, unprofessional. But this notion of, I always have time for you, because I love you and you'd love me back. That's what I'm keeping.
Tim Cynova:
Amazing. God, I don't know how to wrap this up, but profoundly thankful for the time that you've been able to spend with us today. Wish you could see the chat that's going on, a lot of love that's being sent your way, Bamuthi and Lisa, thank you so much for being with us on the show.
Lisa Yancey:
Thank you for having us and asking us.
Tim Cynova:
Yes.
Lisa Yancey:
I love anytime I can be with Bamuthi.
Bamuthi:
Love you Lisa, be safe.
Lisa Yancey:
Bye, love you.
Tim Cynova:
Continue the Works Shouldn't Suck Live adventure with us on our next episode when we're joined by Darren Walker. Missing us in the meantime, you can download more Works Shouldn't Suck Live episodes from your favorite podcasting platform of choice, and re-watch Works Shouldn't Suck Live episodes over on workshouldntsuck.co. If you've enjoyed the conversation or just feeling generous today, please consider writing a review on iTunes so that others who might be interested in the topic and joined the fun to. Give it a thumbs up or five stars or phone a friend, whatever your podcasting platform of choice offers. If you didn't enjoy this chat, please tell someone about it who you don't like as much. Until next time, thanks for listening.
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