Journey Towards Anti-Racism Ep4: Conversation with Jay Coen Gilbert (EP.56)
Updated
March 19, 2022
In episode four of the 12-part podcast series, "White Men & the Journey Towards Anti-Racism," Tim interviews Jay Coen Gilbert, CEO of Imperative21 and Co-Founder of B Lab.
This series was created to be a resource for white men who might be wrestling with questions like, “What’s my role in anti-racism, equity, inclusion, and justice work as a white man with power and privilege?” and “How might my personal commitment to do this work manifest itself in the organization I help lead?”
Are you new to the series? Check out episode 54 where podcast co-hosts Lauren Ruffin and Tim Cynova introduce and frame the conversations. Download the accompanying study guide. And explore the other episodes in this series with guests:
Raphael Bemporad (Founding Partner) & Bryan Miller (Chief Financial Officer), BBMG
Ron Carucci, Co-Founder & Managing Partner, Navalent
Ted Castle (Founder & President) & Rooney Castle (Vice President), Rhino Foods
David Devan, General Director & President, Opera Philadelphia
Jared Fishman, Founding Executive Director, Justice Innovation Lab
Kit Hughes, Co-Founder & CEO, Look Listen
Marc Mannella, Independent Consultant, Former CEO KIPP Philadelphia Public Schools
John Orr, Executive Director, Art-Reach
David Reuter, Partner, LLR
Sydney Skybetter, Founder, CRCI; Associate Chair & Senior Lecturer, Theatre Arts & Performance Studies Department, Brown University
Want to explore related resources primarily *not* by white guys? Check out our compilation of 30 books, podcasts, and films.
Host: Tim Cynova
Guest
Jay Coen Gilbert is CEO of Imperative 21, a business-led network that believes the imperative of the 21st century is to RESET our economic system so that its purpose is to create shared well being on a healthy planet. Network steward organizations include B Lab, The B Team, Chief Executives for Corporate Purpose (CECP), Common Future, Conscious Capitalism, Inc., Global Impact Investing Network (GIIN), JUST Capital, and Participant. Imperative 21 builds on Jay’s experience as cofounder of B Lab, the nonprofit behind the global B Corporation movement. Along with his B Lab cofounders, Jay is the recipient of the Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship and the McNulty Prize at the Aspen Institute, where he is a Henry Crown Fellow. Since 2016, Jay has been called into antiracism work, prioritizing his own learning and UNlearning journey while co-convening multiracial and white caucus spaces and formats including WMRJ (White Men for Racial Justice) and AWARE (Allies Whites Against Racism for Equity), both designed to help white people come together in peer-led communities of learning and practice to develop racial literacy, stamina, and communication skills, and a commitment to dismantle racism in ourselves, our organizations, our communities, and our country. Prior to co-founding B Lab (and despite having no game), Jay co-founded and sold AND1, a $250M basketball footwear, apparel, and entertainment company. He has also worked for McKinsey & Co, as well as organizations in the public and nonprofit sectors. Jay grew up in New York City and while he graduated from Stanford University with a degree in East Asian Studies, his most rewarding educational experience was co-teaching a class for the last ten years about the role of business in society at Westtown School, a 200-year-old Quaker institution. Between AND1 and B Lab, Jay enjoyed a sabbatical in Australia, New Zealand, and Monteverde, Costa Rica with his yogini wife Randi and two children, Dex and Ria, now 23 and 21. Jay and Randi live in Berwyn, PA.
B Lab is transforming the global economy to benefit all people, communities, and the planet. A leader in economic systems change, our global network creates standards, policies, and tools for business, and we certify companies—known as B Corps—who are leading the way. To date, our community includes more than 4,000 B Corps in 70 countries and 150 industries, 10,000 benefit corporations, and 100,000 companies who manage their impact with the B Impact Assessment and the SDG Action Manager. Learn more at bcorporation.net. B Lab has been recognized in almost every major business publication (including Forbes, Fortune, The New York Times, The Economist, The Guardian, The Wall Street Journal), and its work was named by Fast Company as one of “20 Moments That Mattered Over the Last 20 Years.”
Imperative 21 is a business-led network that believes the imperative of the 21st century is to RESET our economic system so that its purpose is to create shared wellbeing on a healthy planet. In addition to equipping business leaders to fulfill this purpose, Imperative 21 shapes the narrative about the role of business in society, and supports policy changes that accelerate the transition to stakeholder capitalism. Network stewards include: B Lab (certifier of B Corporations), The B Team, Chief Executive for Corporate Purpose (CECP), Common Future, Conscious Capitalism, Global Impact Investing Network (GIIN), JUST Capital, and Participant. They collectively represent more than 134,000 businesses across 80 countries and 150 industries, more than 25 million employees, $11 trillion in revenues, and $21 trillion in assets under management, and reach hundreds of millions of people every day who are increasingly eager to vote with their purchases, investments, and employment decisions.
Host
TIM CYNOVA (he/him) is the Principal of Work. Shouldn’t. Suck., an HR and org design consultancy helping to reimagine workplaces where everyone can thrive. He is a certified Senior Professional in Human Resources (SPHR) and a trained mediator, and has served on the faculty of Minneapolis College of Art & Design, the Banff Centre for Arts & Creativity (Banff, Canada) and The New School (New York City) teaching courses in People-Centric Organizational Design and Strategic HR. In 2021, he concluded a 12-year tenure leading Fractured Atlas, a $30M, entirely virtual non-profit technology company and the largest association of independent artists in the U.S., where he served in both the Chief Operating Officer and Co-CEO roles (part of a four-person, shared, non-hierarchical leadership team), and was deeply involved in its work to become an anti-racist, anti-oppressive organization since they made that commitment in 2013. Earlier in his career, Tim was the Executive Director of The Parsons Dance Company and of High 5 Tickets to the Arts in New York City, had a memorable stint with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, was a one-time classical trombonist, musicologist, and for five years in his youth he delivered newspapers for the Evansville, Indiana Courier-Press.
Transcript
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And our habit mostly, as white people is saying, "I don't really have to deal with this. It's not my issue. I care about it, but I've got other priorities." That's our natural state. Mostly because we can, or we think we can, ignore these things. And so, I think what we're experiencing right now is expected and it's what we have to work against, which is why I value so much the community that you and I are a part of, White Men for Racial Justice, because we've built a community of practice together that is of mutual support and accountability. And it calls us constantly in, like a little tap on the shoulder to say, "Hey, are you still here? Are you still in the work?" And just that little bit of implicit reminder, I think, is really helpful for folks like me, who otherwise would have lots of other things to be focused on and lots of other problems to solve and things to build and cetera. And because this isn't necessarily part of my everyday experience, if I choose to not see it as such, it's easy for me just to leave it on the side as a nice to have, among many other things that are nice to have, as opposed to an imperative.
Tim Cynova:
Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work. Shouldn't. Suck. A podcast about, well, that. We've paused our regular podcast episodes to produce this 10-part mini series called White Men and the Journey Towards Anti-Racism. While you can listen to the episodes in any order, if you're joining us in the midst of this adventure, I invite you to check out episode 54 of our podcast, where my co-host, Lauren Ruffin, and I, introduce the series and frame these conversations. All of the episodes, as well as a whole host of amazing resources on the topic, not by white guys, can be found on workshouldntsuck.co. In this series, we're talking with a variety of white guys who are personally and professionally engaged in anti-racism work. When asked, they each define the work in slightly different ways. Some articulate it as anti-racism or anti-oppression work. Others say they approach it more through a justice lens. Others, inclusion and belonging. Still others, equity and impact. Through these conversations will explore the moments that led each of them to do this work, including their initial realizations that this was work for white guys to be doing.
Tim Cynova:
We'll discuss what's been most impactful and resonant to them in the journey, what's been most challenging, and since this is a podcast about the workplace, we'll discuss how this work shows up in the organizations they lead and the ones they work with. On today's conversation I'm joined by Jay Coen Gilbert, co-founder of B Lab and CEO of Imperative 21. Imperative 21 is a network of more than 70,000 businesses working to reset our economic system so that its purpose is to create shared wellbeing on a healthy planet. It's a network focused on the opportunity we currently have to reimagine and redesign what comes next. You can find Jay's bio linked in the description for this episode. So, in the interest of time, let's get going. Jay, welcome to the podcast.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
Thanks so much, Tim. It's great to be here with you.
Tim Cynova:
Jay, you wear several hats. How do you typically introduce yourself these days, and the work that you do?
Jay Coen Gilbert:
My name's Jay Coen Gilbert. And I'm a dad and a husband and I live outside of Philadelphia on Lenape land. In the context of this, I guess I do two things. I work with the businesses trying to make a positive impact on the world and shift their economic systems so it centers on people, not profits. And in my work in racial justice, the way I would describe it is I'm working with other white men to be our best selves.
Tim Cynova:
Do you specifically define the work around race? Because there's a lot of different lenses. People talk about anti-racism, anti-oppression, diversity, inclusion, justice, equity. Is race the lens that you use and have you always thought of it that way?
Jay Coen Gilbert:
Yeah, it's a good question. When I think about the work, I do think of it as racial justice work. I'm persuaded by things like Angela Glover Blackwell's seminal article called The Curb Cut Effect, that if you focus on race, if you address racial inequities, you are going to address all inequities because in a system, in a culture, in a society like ours, that has been largely built on racial hierarchy, if you can see it and then dismantle that racial hierarchy, you're inevitably going to get into all the other inequity issues around gender, and ability, and sexual orientation, and gender identity. All of those things are going to come out of it if you deal thoughtfully around racial inequity. And so, I think of it as, if I'm supporting racial justice, if I'm advancing racial justice, then I'm advancing justice for all.
Tim Cynova:
Have you always thought through this lens?
Jay Coen Gilbert:
No, I haven't. I'd say that for most of my life, my lens was through a lens of class. And through a lens around what can I do to alleviate, minimize, eradicate poverty. As someone that was born in a pretty privileged background, I think that was pretty present for me. And I recognized that I was born with things that others weren't, and therefore opportunities that others weren't. And that felt like a class issue for most of my life. And it wasn't until doing this work with more intention and focus over the last five years that I came to see that race and class are inextricably linked, certainly in the US context, but pretty much around the world. And that it's probably not super helpful to start parsing chicken and egg, but I'm really persuaded by analyses like you'd read in Heather McGhee's, The Sum of Us, and her mentor, Ian Haney Lopez, from Berkeley, who's done some really pioneering work in what's now called the race class narrative, and the work of The Groundwater Institute, that have really helped me see things more clearly that the economic inequities that we see can be traced back to, and are inseparable from, the racial inequities that we've created.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And so for me, it hasn't been consistent. The initial insight wasn't like, "Oh, of course it's about race." It felt like the issue was about resources. And it was only in looking more closely that I realized that the lack of resources, the investments in certain areas, the disinvestments in other areas, were being driven by race and racial hierarchy. And whether that was conscious or unconscious is a whole separate conversation, but those are the systems that we've got. And those are the systems that we're operating in. And that's the culture that we've got and the culture that we're swimming in. And so for me, at least where I am now, and I view this as a continuing process of revelation, and so there may be other things I'm not aware of and then I'll change my mind in the future, but at least right now, it feels fairly clear and compelling that the water we're swimming in is racism. And until we look at that clearly and can dismantle that in ourselves, we're not going to have a shot at dismantling that in our systems and culture.
Tim Cynova:
That phrase, 'process of revelation', I think is so powerful and that it's ever evolving. And we're looking back at like, "Oh God," the things we didn't know that we didn't know, and then we learn it and realize how harmful and problematic and how maybe we're trying to do good, but realized that was not exactly the impact that our actions were having. When we first met several years ago, we were sharing our stories about how did we end up here? And you shared a piece that you've not published, sort of revelations of having started AND1 and then B Lab. And how the things you thought were great, turned out to not be so much in hindsight. Can you unpack a little bit of that and really what that process was like for you, to reflect back on those experiences?
Jay Coen Gilbert:
I think you're referring to a piece I wrote that I called The Myth of the Self-Made Millionaire, the privilege of AND1. And the process of writing that was really helpful for me. Writing, for me, is a form of mindfulness, like going for a walk in the woods or sitting by a body of water. I find that the act of writing forces me to answer questions, which then lead to new questions, which then lead to deeper reflection. And I'm sort of hopping across a stream, stepping stone by stepping stone. And I can't just leap across the stream. I have to take it one step at a time and find my footing. And the writing process for me gives me that ability to put one foot in front of the other and then see a little bit more clearly go around a corner and see something I didn't expect. And then examine that, which raises some new questions.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And I'd say that I did what a lot of people I know do, which is the first time I heard the word privilege, I had a very internal eye roll and I was like, "Oh man, what are we talking about now? New word, new term. You're putting that on me. And I busted my butt to build this company. I worked 25 hours a day, days a week, 400 days a year to build what I built, how dare you take that away from me?" And sure, I grew up with some money, but at the end of the day, I built this. There's an incredible podcast. It's literally called, How I Built This. And the entire framing of that, as I wrote this piece, as I sort of explored what was really going on when we created AND1 with my friends.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
Well, first of all, is that the entire construct of "I" was a lie, because we did it with others. Not just the partners, but then all the other people that made that possible. And then as I explored that, and what gave us the ability to take those risks, what enabled us to be seen as credible, as 25 year old of guys with no experience in the industry, what gave us access to the $50,000 from friends and family, how we happened to have money in the bank from bar mitzvahs or summer jobs or whatever it might have been, how we didn't have student debt coming out of undergrad or graduate school. There were so many instances where the way in front of us was cleared, or at least more smooth than it would've been for others who, when I thought about it, were competing with us, with the same idea at the same time, but who came from less advantage backgrounds, and so who therefore, would've had to overcome more obstacles to be in the same position we were.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And the more I looked at it, the more steps I took across that little stream, the more I realized, "Oh, there was some advantage here. There was some advantage here. There was some advantage there." And that doesn't negate the hard work or the smarts or the partnership and just the luck of being in the right place at the right time with a good idea. We had all those things. But we also had some advantages. And it felt like, as I was doing this work, it only became meaningful to me if I could move past the intellectualization of this as a concept and talk about it as a reality for me in my life. And the single most defining thing in my professional life was a 13 year run to create a company called AND1 that had huge success, culturally and financially, that's given me every other opportunity I've ever had. And every bit of credibility that allows me to do things in my life now that are all based upon that success.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And that success was absolutely based upon a good idea and hard work and great partners and all the things and great execution. And it was also based upon, or built on, some advantages that I didn't see at all when I was going through that for 13 years, or even in the 5 or 10 years directly after that, as I was sort of beating my chest and swelling, puffing up my chest with how I built this, or how we built this, and realized that there was already a lot of the construction underway before we got there. And we may have done some really important things, but it wasn't all because of our brilliance or sweat.
Tim Cynova:
Really powerful. And also, something that I imagine a lot of the white guys listening to this are, or have been, wrestling with themselves, how to hold multiple things at the same time and what to do with them.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
Yeah. My partner at B Lab who was also an an early investor in AND1, because he went to work for a finance company, so he had five grand that he could invest in our little startup. His name is Andrew [Casoy 00:12:49]. And he has taught me so much over the years, in so many contexts. And there was one B Corp [inaudible 00:12:56] retreat down in New Orleans several years ago. And we were in the thick of our equity journey as an organization and as a community. And by in the thick of it, I'm being generous. We were at the early stages, sort of awkward groping for what this was. He was on stage in a panel conversation and different people sharing their perspectives on this. And he shared something that I know he learned from others who were further along on the journey than him.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And he shared very humbly, as he always does, his grappling with this notion of privilege. And he was the first person from whom I heard this notion that there are two kinds of privilege, or advantage, if people prefer that word. There's earned privilege or earned advantage, and there's unearned privilege or unearned advantage. I'm sure that wasn't an original thought of his, but he shared that insight that had been revealed to him. And he shared with a room full of 500 business leaders, overwhelmingly white, and heavily male, that as a successful white male in finance and the rest, he recognized that there was some privilege that he earned through his hard work and good ideas and execution, but that there was also this privilege that he didn't earn, but he basically inherited. And what I found so powerful about that, Tim, was that by acknowledging both, I could see shoulders dropping and jaws unclenching, and breath exhaling, as people didn't feel like they were being lectured to like, "Everything you've done is just a result of your privilege and you didn't do any of this. It was given."
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And it was like, "No, no, no, you did do plenty of that. And congratulations and good on you. And there's also space to acknowledge that you might not have done all of it or you might have had a helping hand or a head start or a wind at your back, or at least no obstacles in front of you." That was revelatory for me. And I've seen that be revelatory for other white people, and particularly other white men who are used to being celebrated in rewarded for all the things that we do alone, because it didn't deny their work. It just made space for their work to sit alongside other things that they had nothing to do with, but benefited from. That to me is an example of a really skillful calling in to this work and finding sort of bridge language or metaphors or stories that you can tell that say, "This is hard and it's complex and it's not binary. You will benefit from really thinking about what elements of your success are result of your earned privilege or earned advantage, and what elements of success are a result of this unearned advantage or unearned privilege."
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And I found that not only revelatory, but I found that liberatory. I found that it relieved some stress and it enabled me to see things more clearly, and then own it and own both of them. And I could be proud of the work we've done and the success we've had that was because of our own insights. And I could also be humble enough to recognize that there's lots of things that I've enjoyed almost as a bequest. I no longer want to look at those as a birthright, but as a bequest, and then something I have to use wisely.
Tim Cynova:
I've been thinking recently about what I feel are three stages that I've happened for the past two years or so. Two years ago where you'd be explaining to someone about how an organization should be thinking about racism and oppression and how it impacts their policies and practices. And oftentimes I was met with, "Well, why? Why should we be doing that?" And then after George Floyd's murder, it became, "How?" People were starting to learn a little bit more about racism and oppression. And it became, "How?" I feel like we're starting to enter what is a third phase, which is a rejection of that as it shows up in organizations and as things like critical race theory become politicized. And organizations are saying, "No, we're not going to talk about politics in the workplace. This is an apolitical space."
Jay Coen Gilbert:
Right.
Tim Cynova:
I feel like the window is closing on organizations being able to do the work or not being called in a way that's hopeful and liberatory. It's people are feeling like, "If I'm a white person, I should feel ashamed or bad about this."
Jay Coen Gilbert:
Right.
Tim Cynova:
How are you seeing it right now?
Jay Coen Gilbert:
It's a good question. And I see it as pretty muddy. Like most people, I like a nice clean analysis, but I don't think it's that clean. I thought where you were going was we're going from the why, to the how, and to the what, and, "What are the things I should do?" And et cetera. And I think what you're describing is, in education spaces, they talk about spiral learning. And that nothing's linear, right? We move forward. We circle back. We move forward. We circle back. It's like those old phone cords. And sometimes, if you remember them, if you're old enough to remember that there were these things you took off the wall and had cords, not only were they spiral, but they would twist on themselves and then get all twisted. And I feel like this work is kind of like that.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
If I try to create a nice clean narrative, it may feel good, but it hides lots of complexity. I absolutely see what you're seeing and feel what you're feeling with a rising sort of resistance or the normal sort of forces of inertia that sort of settle this energy. And without something that's... An object in motion stays in motion. An object at rest stays in rest. It needs forces to act upon it. And so as those forces that were pushing us to confront these things lessen, the momentum decreases and the natural friction that exists, because we don't exist in outer space, there's natural friction that exists, slows us down. And that friction can be distraction. It could be coming out of COVID. It could be a myriad things around that are going on in our work and our lives and just the normal cycle of an urgent moment that turns into a chronic moment.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And it's harder to stay focused for the long term. No different than working out or leading a healthy lifestyle. Habits are hard to form and easy to break. Or sorry, both hard to form and hard to break. And our habit is mostly, as white people, saying, "I don't really have to deal with this. It's not my issue. And I care about it, but I've got other priorities." That's our natural state. Mostly because we can, or we think we can, ignore these things. And so I think what we're experiencing right now is expected. And it's what we have to work against, which is why I value so much the community that you and I are a part of, "White Men for Racial Justice." Because we've built a community of practice together, that is of mutual support and accountability. And it calls us constantly in like a little tap on the shoulder to say, "Hey, are you still here? Are you still in the work?"
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And just that little bit of implicit reminder, I think, is really helpful for folks like me, who otherwise would have lots of other things to be focused on and lots of other problems to solve and things to build and et cetera. And because this isn't necessarily part of my everyday experience, if I choose used to not see it as such, it's easy for me just to leave it on the side as a nice to have, among many other things that are nice to have, as opposed to an imperative for me. And so, I do see some of that rising resistance, but I think if you study our history, you'd say that that's also pretty typical, whether it's Reconstruction or the Civil Rights Movement or school integration. Affirmative action.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
You could name any signs of progress, and they were always met with resistance, because every force is met by an equal and opposite force. And that's why this requires sustained engagement. And particularly sustained engagement from those who currently hold the most power. And that is white people, and that's largely white men. And we have been the ones who have been most conspicuously absent from these conversations and from these movements throughout our history. We have to look very closely to find white men who stepped into this work over the last several hundred years. And there are plenty of them, but we mostly don't know their names and we don't know what they did. And we don't know the joy that they experienced in doing it or the sacrifices that they made in doing it. And I think that's, at least for me, where I'm finding the most power and energy to continue the work, is to be in an intentional relationship with other white men that know that they've been on the sidelines more than they wanted to be.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And they're willing to acknowledge that among others, and to say, "I can do better. I'm so grateful that you think I can do better. And you're going to help me do better." And I think that's the key. And it's one person at a time and one community at a time doing that. And that's the only thing that's going to overcome the forces of inertia and the forces of resistance. And honestly, I think the forces of inertia are much stronger than the forces of resistance. I think if you think about this as a bell curve of white engagement or white male engagement on these issues, I think the big part of the bell curve is not resistance. I think the big part of the bell curve is some form of indifference or unmotivation or lack of prioritization. That's as, "I say I care, but of my actions say, 'I don't care enough to make this my top priority or one of my top three priorities.'"
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And we love to say in a business context that it's only your top three priorities that ever get done. So, you can have a long list of things you want to do, but I just need to boil down to three max for our focus for the next year, if using your influence, your power, your workplace to advance racial justice isn't one of your top three priorities for your business, it's not going to get done. For most of us, it hasn't been. And my hope is that we can create a community of practice and power that will help people make their own decision to prioritize this, because it's only when we prioritize it that we'll spend the time. And when we spend the time we bring resources, networks, and others along with us, and that's using our advantage to really good effect.
Tim Cynova:
You're a co-founder of B Lab doing that work. You're CEO of Imperative 21. And then last June 2020, you started something else, with a group of guys. You've talked about White Men for Racial Justice. What was the impetus for that? As you mentioned, I'm a part of this group. I value it a great deal, to be in a community with a group of guys. It's not a work setting, so you don't have those power dynamics of, "I'm a CEO. I'm in here with people who report to me." Maybe start with why start this group, and then we can dive into what's a part of it, and maybe talk about the curriculum development, which is really rigorous.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
The first thing to start with is that we didn't, we didn't set out to start a group. And so, the first great part of the plan is that we didn't have a plan, which was very atypical for a bunch of white dudes who typically like to show up and fix things and solve things. We showed up on a Tuesday night, June 2nd, after an email went out on a Sunday, to about, I don't maybe, maybe about 20 people that just said, "We're all witnessing what's going on right now," which was the beginning of the mass of protests all around the city... not the city. All around the US, and beginning are all around the world, as a result of the murder of George Floyd. We were all feeling gut-wrenched and confused or angry or frustrated. We were all feeling a lot of feeling a lot of feels.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And as typical white dudes, we mostly didn't know what to do with those feelings. And so, we just called people and said, "If you're a white man grappling with any number of different feelings," and we listed 8 or 10 different feelings that were all contradictory and swirling, "We're feeling some of those things too. And we'd love to just gather in community and have a conversation about what we're feeling and what we might do, how we might channel those feelings." And it wasn't anything more than that. We said, "There's no agenda. And we're showing up as humans, not as representatives of our organizations," to your point, about trying to reduce certain barriers and expectations and power dynamics. And 100 guys showed up. And my phone was blowing up with like, "I can't get in what happened is..."
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And it was just because I didn't realize that we had a Zoom that had 100-person limit. And we just held space for conversation. Fortunately, I had been in both some white racial affinity space and multiracial racial justice spaces over the last five years. And a few of the white men who were in that with me, were effectively some of the co-conveners and holders of that space that first night. It was really powerful. We just sort of let it emerge. And we didn't try to force a game plan or KPIs or an outcome onto the situation. We just said, "Wait, well, it seems like there's energy here to meet again. And so we're going to meet in two weeks from today, same time. And between now and then, everybody should listen to the Seeing White Podcast Series." 14 episode podcast series that we had already done in other settings and knew would form a really nice foundational, shared experience and set of knowledge for all of us on that, that we could then process together.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
We said, "Hey, 14 episodes in 14 days. You've done lots of harder stuff in your life. Let's do it." We basically met every other week. We just kept on committing to keep meeting and unpacking what we were experiencing. Not just the facts and new history and new data that was present in that podcast series. But also, more importantly, how we were feeling about it. Because, again, we often don't give ourselves the opportunity to express our feelings. And we tend to over intellectualize and analyze things, and not really just sit with it and say, "Well, how does that make you feel when you heard about the history of how race was baked into our legal system? And how this inequity led to that? How does that make you feel? Particularly as a white man, how does that make you feel?"
Jay Coen Gilbert:
We realized that we had stumbled onto a bit of a format that would lead to deeper understanding and deeper reflection, which then led to deeper commitment and community among this widening group of white men. And we then basically started meeting every other week. Eventually people said, "Hey, I want to go deeper on this stuff." And so we created these peer support circles, which enabled smaller groups of four to six guys who we get together consistently with the same people and really create a braver space for vulnerability, because it's often more challenging to share some personal of stuff in a group of 40, 60 guys on a Zoom screen. But if you're with the same group of guys, week after week or month after month, maybe you'll be willing to slowly open your heart a little bit more and share things that you might not have shared.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And that's exactly what's happened. Since the beginning, Tim, we've been in relationship with paid Black equity advisors to make sure that a bunch of white guys don't go run off thinking they know something or developing a great plan, but with all the blind spots that we have. And the combination of leveraging existing content... We're not creating content... leveraging existing, vetted credible content, having a format that enables us to go deeper in conversation, and community and reflection about that content, so we internalize it and personalize it, don't just intellectualize it and externalize it, and doing all that while holding ourselves accountable to the advice and guides and wisdom of people who are living in this every day. That combination has been pretty powerful. And now the group's been meeting together pretty much weekly for the last 18 months. And it's like going to the gym or going to church or going to your yoga class or whatever it is, or going to your choir practice.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
You get better with practice. When you're left to do it on your own, you don't do it as often or as well. But when you do it with others, you can push each other, and lovingly challenge each other to show up or to dig deeper or to translate any of that learning into actual action in your spheres of influence, whether that's your family, your community, your church, your workplace, whatever it might be. And that's been sort of the special sauce. And we've just basically been doing that for the last 18 months. We've learned a ton. We've gone down a lot of false trails. We've tried a bunch of things that didn't work. And we're evolving. And we're evolving to meet the revealed needs and desires of that community of white men, and now inviting other white men into relationship and into community with us and welcoming everybody.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
There are no teachers here. We're all learners. And we all have something to contribute. We're all white men, but that's the only thing that we share, other than a commitment to a vision of an America where everybody is seen and valued and respected and can live to their full potential, and a purpose to dismantle racism and white supremacy in ourselves, our community, our culture. We share that for a trajectory, but there's an incredible amount of diversity among those white men. Age, occupation, where they live, what they do, what they believe about these issues, where they are in their own journey, their political beliefs, their religious affiliations, their gender. It's a very diverse group among homogenous group of white men. And that's actually what it makes it really powerful, because we don't all see things the same way. And that helps us see things in 360 degrees.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
If you can create a container in which people feel comfortable sharing, "You know what? I'm not so sure about that. That's still sitting with me a little uneasily. I don't really know what to do with what's coming up for me right now." And people are willing to share that, which when someone vocalized it, there's probably eight other guys who are thinking the same thing. And so it creates a space for a mutual and accelerated learning and supported action that I've never experienced anything else that I've done. And I've been in lots of spaces of collective action, like the B Corp community with shared values and et cetera, but never anything where people were willing to be as vulnerable as they have been in this community. And that has been inspiring for me. And it's really been inspiring for our equity advisors and a lot of the other Black and brown and Indigenous leaders who have partnered with us help guide our journey, is when they see 40 or 50 white guys on the Zoom really grappling with this stuff and they see how open and vulnerable they're being with where they are on their journey and what they're still grappling with.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
They share with us that inspires them and it gives them hope, because those who've got the most power, who've been most missing from the struggle, are beginning to show up. And that's hopeful. And that doesn't make us saviors. It doesn't make us the only game in town. It doesn't make us leading anything. It just means we're starting to show up. And that in of itself is a big deal, because we've been absent for so long.
Tim Cynova:
One of the things I really value about the community is there's no template for this journey. Not like, "All right, I know how to make a budget now. I know what a marketing plan looks like." In particular, as we're thinking about in the workplace, both the personal work that we need to do as white guys, but then my lens is typically through the workplace. How do we do this in the workplace? There's no plan for this. And it's often bespoke. And what I really appreciate about the community is, I mean, for the past couple of months, every month has been a different theme, like education, or looking through Indigenous perspectives, or voting. And I remarked in our peer support group, "This one doesn't feel like my ministry. I feel better for understanding it, but I feel like this is not where I can engage. But this one actually, there's something that resonates with." And so, I really appreciate that. And I think that's one of the things as white guys who are in this journey, it's like, we're learning different things about it and then how to show up, and then how this impacts our lives, and then our work, is what I found really helpful, just besides its something every week. And even if I'm miss it, I know I'm missing it. It's a reminder. And then it's that importance that that has in our lives.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
Agreed. And I think there's been some benefit to that, taking a look at each of those issues as you described. And there's also a bit of a downside. Back to us learning as we're doing this, we're not going to develop any deep understanding of mass incarceration and criminalization of Black bodies in a month. Even in four 90-minute sessions. It's basically six hours. We'll know more than we knew coming in, but it's a little bit like a survey course, right? A little bit like a buffet. This is all volunteer-led, right? It's a peer-led, volunteer community. And we're lucky enough to have some incredible, both K12, college, adult learning, who are helping to guide our learning journey. And one of the challenges is being topical and timely with stuff that's happening in the world that people want to understand and relate to, knowing the myriad of issues that we want to understand better, and giving people a sense of that, while not becoming like a superficial skimming of the surface of lots of things, but really that then prevent us from going deep on the internal work.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
Because our core philosophy, if you will, learning philosophy, is, if we're not willing to think about how all those things have impacted our lives, personally, we're going to continue to stay on an intellectual analytical plane and not on a personal and emotional plane. And at the end of the day, we're driven by our emotions and we're driven by our feelings much more than we'd like to think we are by our intellect and our brain. And so, how do we help people feel this? By grappling with this of make sure we go inward. And by making sure we integrate action assignments into each one of those learning modules. And so, one of the things that's happened over the last three or four months is I said, "Hey, here's what we're looking at this month and here's the action assignment that you're getting at the beginning of the month. And by the end of the month, when we meet in our week four session, we're going to meet in small groups and you're going to share what you've done on that stuff. Either what's worked or what hasn't worked, and we're going to learn from each other through doing, not just as a book club or an intellectual exercise."
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And that scratches the itch that we all feel to get some, get something done, while also putting that doing in the context of the reflection. That is what will lead to more skillful action. And so, we find the monthly things can be helpful if they're tied to action. And we also need to be wary of becoming a survey course that gives us a superficial understanding of lots of things without really going deeper internally.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And so, for January and February next year, as an example, we're going to spend a couple months doing some of the internal work presented to us by this incredible book, Me and White Supremacy by Layla Saad. It's written as a 28 day sort of reflection action journal. We'll stretch out over two months to give ourselves a little bit more space to grapple with these things. But we're going to be responding to the prompt that she's asking us as a Black woman leader in this work. She's saying we need to grapple with all these different issues and ask ourselves how these things are showing up in our lives. And we're going to do that over a couple months and then figure out, as we grapple with that, things are going to become apparent to us, like that we've probably caused harm that we weren't aware that we caused.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And what would it be like to begin to do some repair work on that harm? That is the action assignment that we all want to avoid. One is we don't want to admit that we cause harm, because we're good guys. "I mean, I didn't mean it that way. And so I'm really sorry if you took it that way." As opposed to owning our impact. And then owning our impact and then actually seeking out someone that you may have caused harm to and apologizing and sharing what you've learned that at least leads you to believe that you may have caused that harm and how that might have impacted them. Knowing that you're not going to be perfect, but calling them in, inviting them in to let you know if you do something again. And so hopefully, those mistakes can be fewer, farther between, less severe, and your learning curve can be much deeper.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
That's an action. That's going to be really uncomfortable for folks, but it's going to be really important. Another version of an action there is going to be... Because it sounds very just purely reflective when you do a bunch of journaling, but okay, now that you've grappled with how white supremacy culture and systems show up, not just individual behavior, but the culture and systems that we operate in, asking people to think about an area in their life, could be their family, could be their community group, could be their workplace where, now with this deeper understanding of how these systems and cultures show up, how have those shown up in one of more of those spheres of influence? And pick one and develop an action plan that you can then vet within our community and with our equity advisor, say, "How am I going to work to dismantle that system? Or shift that culture that is perpetuating racial inequity or racial hierarchy, even though it didn't intend it or we didn't intend it? Or even though we didn't see it before, or we didn't even create it, but it's there, and what can we do?"
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And so even something that feels as reflective, and over multiple months is grappling with this notion of what is white supremacy, culture, and systems, and then translating that personally and then doing the repair work at the interpersonal level and doing the dismantle work in our organizational or community spheres of influence, that to me is where the power of this community is. Because it's a continuous practice of learning, reflection, and action that are continuous feedback loop on each other, and that for which we hold each other accountable.
Tim Cynova:
One of the questions I get frequently when talking about this work that white guys need to be doing is from the people who are not the white guys in leadership. It's specifically in workplaces where it's like, "All right, well, the white CEO is not interested in this work." Or, "The white members of my board are not interested in this work." How do you often respond to that prompt? Because I'm sure you get that from people you speak with in your communities. What's your response?
Jay Coen Gilbert:
That has been one of the most challenging things for me, Tim,. I have caused wounds. I have created scars. I have created harm in organizations I've been in, because I was too impatient on this topic. Either the organization wasn't ready or the organization recognized that I wasn't ready or appropriate to be perceived as leading in this area without the consent of those most impacted by these issues. I come to this question pretty honestly, that it's really complicated. Because at the same time that white men are being called into the work and are needed in the work, and I'm crystal clear that there is a place for white men's voices and white men's action in this work. There's a way that we need to show up in this that's going to be really important, not just whether we're up in it. And so part of that is having sort of a patient urgency about calling other white men into this work, and a gentle persistence, a loving persistence about calling people into this work and recognizing that these inequities have existed and have been growing for 400 years.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
Our job isn't to solve them by Q4 or in four years’ time. It's not going to happen. And so, we have to get comfortable with a lack of closure. We have to get comfortable with our own lack of agency. And we still have to take responsibility for doing our own work. And through that example and our consistency of doing the work, that and of itself makes it harder for others to stay on the sideline. Just the fact that we keep on doing it makes it harder for others, because it's constantly there like a fly buzzing around your ear that you can't get rid of. Like, "They're still doing that. I thought that would've gone away by now." Right? "I thought it was performative. I thought it was just reacting to what happened with Floyd or Breonna Taylor or Ahmaud Arbery. I thought it was just there for the moment, but no, they're still doing that. And they're still calling me in to this work."
Jay Coen Gilbert:
That consistency and persistence, I think, is the key. Because people have to come to this when they're ready. They'll be ready sooner if you keep on inviting them. Eventually, someone will accept your invitation. And maybe they didn't like a dance party, but they like a dinner club. Or maybe they like an Irish pub and not a tablecloth dinner. People are going to want to show up in different ways at different things. And we have to keep inviting folks in, in different ways that meet their needs and meet them where they are, while not allowing it to be acceptable that they can do nothing. And that's a really difficult tension to hold, and one where I don't pretend to have the answer. But the best mantra that I keep in my head is, if you have a conversation with somebody and they leave that conversation willing to have another one, that's probably a success. And you're not going to get everything you want out of one conversation or one training or whatever the thing is. This is a process of lifelong learning and unlearning and translating that learning into action.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And as you said, none of us have the answers. None of us what we're doing, because we've never been here before. It's literally uncharted territory as a society. And so, if it's scary for people, if it's uncomfortable for people, we have to recognize that it was scary and uncomfortable for us too, at different stages of our journey. And if we can show up at that kind of empathy and recognition that they are me and I am them, and just like I wasn't ready for a long time, but something happened that I felt like I could come in and then I did, I trust that something will happen for everybody else, and I just have to keep on creating opportunities for them to say yes, and then make that experience of saying yes as supportive, without being coddling, but with as supportive as possible for them so that they're just willing to come back the next time.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
So, sorry, one other... this is a fun anecdote. I never thought about this before. One of the most fun things I ever got to do as a dad was to coach little league. And we went in my first year of coaching, we got called into the gym at seven o'clock one Sunday morning to get trained in had to be a coach. And it was a former minor league player who got his 10-day ticket to the show once, whatever it was, and he's going to tell us how to be coaches. And the thing that he shared with us, amidst all the stations and trainings and specific mechanics of this, that, and the other thing, he said, "Look, at the end of the day, you've got one job. You've got to catch him doing something right." Because every kid knows when they make a mistake. They don't need you to tell them. This is an incredibly hard sport. Hall of Famers fail 7 out of 10 times. So, this is really, really hard. And so your only job is to catch them doing something right so they come back next time for the next practice, because no one is going to get good at this after one practice or one season or one game or with one lesson about whatever it is. This takes the 10,000 hours. This takes all that kind of time.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And the only thing that's going to have people putting in that time is if they choose to do it. You can't force a kid to spend 10,000 hours doing anything. They have to want to do it. And if we want to have competence, forget about mastery. In being white men showing up for racial justice, we're going to have to put in real time. And the only way people put in that time is if they choose to do it. And the only reason they'll choose to do it tomorrow is if their experience today or yesterday was a positive one.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And so, we want to catch people doing something right. We want to celebrate their small wins, including the mistakes that they made that they've learned from, and invite them to come in for the next meeting. And then the next meeting. And just take that one step at a time, because that's what it's going to take. The lesson from as a little league coach, I think, applies to being in community with other white men on racial justice, which is let's catch each other doing something right. Let's make it a challenging, but rewarding and fulfilling experience through building great relationships. And then people will choose to continue coming back. And that will lead to right action. And all those right actions will, together, begin to chip away and chip away and chip away at the culture and systems that have gotten us into the place we're in now.
Tim Cynova:
Jay, so powerful. Patient urgency, loving persistence. So powerful, caring, and vulnerable. There's so much there that you shared already. Is there something you want to share as we're landing the plane here?
Jay Coen Gilbert:
Someone in our community shared last night, during our year end celebration, that after a year and a half of doing this work together in community, he finally realized that he wasn't doing this work for them, for Black, Indigenous, and people of color. That he was doing this work for himself. That doing this work has enriched his life, because its allowed him to become closer to the man he wants to be. Its allowed him to be the husband, the father, the friend that he wants to be. That he's had conversations with Black and brown friends that he's never had before, that have brought him closer to them, and have opened up all kinds of richness in his life, that have made this fulfilling work, and that carry him through moments of exhaustion and frustration. And if I were leaving something would be, I have also had that experience where, over the last five years of more intentionally being involved in lots of different communities doing this work, and particularly with this community of white men over the last 18 months is, I have built so many relationships and deepened so many relationships that have just made my life better, more fulfilling, more fun, more joyful.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And I've been exposed to things I haven't been exposed to that have made me a better dad, a better husband, a better colleague, partner, a leader, in the workplace, in my community, et cetera. And so, there is joy in this work and there is a place for white men in this work, who often feel like they're just being asked to go away. Those that are paying attention, feel like they're being asked to just go away, step aside, step back, make room, create space, sacrifice, give up. And there is reason to do all of those things. And there is also reason to show up and to show up in your full power and with all the advantages that you bring, but to use that power wisely and to shift it generously and to build it in others thoughtfully.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
And when you do that well, that's also fulfilling. And it is beginning to chip away at those systems and structures and cultures that are diminishing all of us. Our humanity, our economy, our democracy. And so, as we do that, person by person, action by action, we are restoring our humanity. We're strengthening our economy. We're safeguarding our democracy. All of those things are happening as we build relationships that fill our own cup. I would just say, what's in it for me? I think there's a lot in it for me. And there's a lot in it for us. It can be fun, too. And that's been the biggest lesson for me, is finding community in this work has been a blessing.
Tim Cynova:
Jay, thank you so much for the care. Thank you so much for the invitation, both personally to the community, and to our listeners. And thank you for the kindness that you shared during an anecdote we didn't talk about that happened several years when we first met and connected on this work. All of it's very meaningful. And thanks for being on the podcast.
Jay Coen Gilbert:
Thank you, Tim. I really appreciate the work you've done and I appreciate how you show up in all these spaces, from when we first met at that Conscious Capitalism CEO Summit, to how you've showed up in White Men for Racial Justice, and the work that you're doing to bring this, your skillfulness, this to this work with other organizations through Work. Shouldn't. Suck, and Fractured Atlas, and the Opera House and SHRM and all the things that you do. I see you and I value and I so appreciate what you're doing and how you're doing it. I'm glad to know you, Tim.
Tim Cynova:
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