Journey Towards Anti-Racism Ep13: Conversation with a Peer Support Circle (EP.66)
Updated
September 13, 2022
In this special bonus episode of "White Men & the Journey Towards Anti-Racism," Tim talks with Noah Becker, Kevin Eppler, Colin Lacey, and Shannon Mudd, four members of a peer support circle that's part of the larger racial affinity group White Men for Racial Justice (WMRJ). This group of guys meet regularly to support, challenge, and hold each other accountable as they seek to live into their values and desire to help co-create an anti-racist, equitable, and just world.
After nearly two years of meeting weekly on Zoom, they finally had the opportunity to meet in 3D in Richmond, Virginia for a weekend of immersive learning and community building with 40 other members of WMRJ. This discussion occurs the week after that gathering.
This series was created to be a resource for white men who might be wrestling with questions like, “What’s my role in anti-racism, equity, inclusion, and justice work as a white man with power and privilege?” and “How might my personal commitment to do this work manifest itself in the organization I help lead?”
Are you new to the series? Check out episode 54 where podcast co-hosts Lauren Ruffin and Tim Cynova introduce and frame the conversations. Download the accompanying study guide. And explore the other episodes in this series with guests:
Raphael Bemporad (Founding Partner) & Bryan Miller (Chief Financial Officer), BBMG
Ted Castle (Founder & President) & Rooney Castle (Vice President), Rhino Foods
Ron Carucci, Co-Founder & Managing Partner, Navalent
David Devan, General Director & President, Opera Philadelphia
Jared Fishman, Founding Executive Director, Justice Innovation Lab
Jay Coen Gilbert, Co-Founder, B Lab; CEO, Imperative21
Kit Hughes, Co-Founder and CEO of Look Listen
Marc Mannella, Independent Consultant, Former CEO KIPP Philadelphia Public Schools
John Orr, Executive Director, Art-Reach
David Reuter, Partner, LLR
Sydney Skybetter, Founder, CRCI; Associate Chair & Senior Lecturer, Theatre Arts & Performance Studies Department, Brown University
Want to explore resources mentioned in and related to this episode?
"Sassy Mouths, Unfettered Spirits, and the Neo-Lynching of Korryn Gaines and Sandra Bland: Conceptualizing Post Traumatic Slave Master Syndrome and the Familiar “Policing” of Black Women’s Resistance in Twenty-First-Century America" by Dr. Zoe Spencer and Olivia N. Perlow
Hidden in Plain Site is a VR exploration of distinct, but easy to overlook sites around Richmond, VA - including the Richmond Slave Trail mentioned during this episode - that tells the story of the Black experience throughout history. Featuring actual examples from various angles and ages, these sites will be brought to impactful life through current appearance augmented with historical imagery.
America's Original Sin: Racism, White Privilege, and the Bridge to a New America by Jim Wallis
"A Stain on An All-American Brand: How Brooks Brothers Once Clothed Slaves" by Dr. Jonathan Michael Square
Want to explore related resources primarily *not* by white guys? Check out our compilation of 30 books, podcasts, and films.
Host: Tim Cynova
Guests
NOAH BECKER With more than 20 years of experience in the corporate financial and public accounting sectors, Noah is responsible for financial reporting and oversight of all administrative financial matters at LLR. During his career, Noah has helped several companies establish the financial and operational tools to facilitate growth and expansion. He has held senior financial positions at early stage as well as established entities such as ICG Commerce, Five Below and The Franklin Mint. Prior to joining LLR, he served as CFO of Finite Carbon. Previously, he spent eight years in public accounting at Arthur Andersen, most recently as a Senior Manager.
KEVIN EPPLER (he/him), MTS, is a curriculum designer, facilitator, and content creator with Jubilee Partners (Jubilee Justice and Jubilee Gift). Kevin recently became a certified Program Leader with the Groundwater Institute. He is also a Learning Partner at The Opt-In. Prior to his work with Jubilee, Groundwater, and The Opt-In, Kevin spent 20 years in education, as a classroom teacher, dean, department chair, and varsity coach. He has designed and taught courses that examine race, justice, social business, social movements, and religion in both university and secondary school settings. Since 2013, Kevin has been dedicated to designing antiracism curriculum, leading antiracist caucus spaces, and JEDI/ABAR (Anti-bias, antiracism) consulting, after having committed himself to his own learning/unlearning as well as building his racial and cultural competence. Kevin believes he and other white men particularly have an important role to play in dismantling systems of oppression that begins with transformational learning and intentional inner work. Kevin has co-designed and founded a number of white, antiracist, caucus spaces including WMRJ (White Men for Racial Justice) and AWARE, both which were designed to call white folk into community and accountability, to develop our racial awareness, our stamina, literacy, and communication skills, as well as to commit to dismantling racism in ourselves and our spheres of influence. He has helped develop antiracism curriculum and programs in high schools, church communities, non-profit organizations, and for profit businesses. Kevin particularly enjoys designing and leading intensive justice and equity based immersion experiences and has done for both secondary schools and adult communities.
COLIN LACEY, Chief Product Officer at a Machine Learning technology startup, has a passion for bringing great products and services to market and has done so in IT, clean energy and software domains. From growing up in Ireland, to working in Asia, Europe, and the Americas, he liked to think that he had a pretty good handle on the state of the world but that was completely dispelled following Charlottesville, and the death of George Floyd, driving him to reassess his perspectives on life and race in America. He lives in Austin, TX with his Afro-Latina wife, their two dogs, and (occasionally) their two college-aged kids.
SHANNON MUDD is an economist who has worked both in and out of academics and has previously lived in Slovakia, Russia and the UK. He currently is in the department of economics and director of Haverford MI3, the Microfinance and Impact Investing Initiative at Haverford College. Mi3 is a member of Investors’ Circle (SVC) and its national network of impact investors and Shannon is an active participant in the Philadelphia Chapter. He and his students manage a small impact investing portfolio of equity investment in early stage social enterprises in partnership with a foundation in HK. He has been living in Phoenixville, PA for 18 years where he and his wife raised two terrific kids and where they are now happily empty nesters. He enjoys cycling, gardening, reading, cooking, training in martial arts, playing guitar and is active in his church leading small group studies and participating in worship music. He participates in POWER Interfaith, an organizing group of largely faith-based congregations actively working toward racial justice, social justice and environmental justice in Pennsylvania.
Host
TIM CYNOVA (he/him) is the Principal of Work. Shouldn’t. Suck., an HR and org design consultancy helping to reimagine workplaces where everyone can thrive. He is a certified Senior Professional in Human Resources (SPHR) and a trained mediator, and has served on the faculty of Minneapolis College of Art & Design, the Banff Centre for Arts & Creativity (Banff, Canada) and The New School (New York City) teaching courses in People-Centric Organizational Design and Strategic HR. In 2021, he concluded a 12-year tenure leading Fractured Atlas, a $30M, entirely virtual non-profit technology company and the largest association of independent artists in the U.S., where he served in both the Chief Operating Officer and Co-CEO roles (part of a four-person, shared, non-hierarchical leadership team), and was deeply involved in its work to become an anti-racist, anti-oppressive organization since they made that commitment in 2013. Earlier in his career, Tim was the Executive Director of The Parsons Dance Company and of High 5 Tickets to the Arts in New York City, had a memorable stint with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, was a one-time classical trombonist, musicologist, and for five years in his youth he delivered newspapers for the Evansville, Indiana Courier-Press.
Transcript
Kevin Eppler:
It was really powerful. It speaks to this reality that I believe it was Jim Wallace in the book, America's Original Sin points out that 75% of white Americans do not have an authentic relationship with a Black, Indigenous, or other person of color, 75%. Not like, "Oh yeah, we're colleagues at work and we talk and we're associates that way." But have you been to each other's house? Have you been to the barbecue? Have you been to the birthday party? Have you gone to church together? And do you hang out in other spaces other than your work environment? Whatever. That's the question. And by that criteria, 75% of white Americans say no.
Tim Cynova:
Hi, I'm Tim Cynova, and welcome to Work shouldn't Suck a podcast about well that. On today's episode, white Guys, anti-racism and mutual support and accountability. I'm joined in this conversation by four amazing guys, Colin Lacey, Kevin Eppler, Noah Becker and Shannon Mudd. Together we form a five person Avengers team of sorts. The five of us are members of a pure support circle, as part of the larger racial equity affinity group called White Men for Racial Justice, or WMRJ for short. As we'll unpack over the course of this conversation, our group of guys meets regularly to support, challenge and hold each other accountable as we seek to live into our values and desire to help co-create an anti-racist, equitable, and just world.
WMRJ has been mentioned a number of times in recent episodes as I've had one on one conversations with several of our WMRJ colleagues for the mini series White Men and the Journey Towards Anti-racism. After nearly two years meeting weekly on Zoom, I had the pleasure of finally meeting these guys for the first time in 3D, as we gathered with nearly 40 other white men in Richmond, Virginia for a weekend of immersive learning and community building. I'm so excited to be in community and conversation with these guys today. So let's get going. Gentlemen, welcome to the podcast.
Kevin Eppler:
Thanks for having me Tim.
Colin Lacey:
Thank you.
Tim Cynova:
recording this at the end of June 2022, amid some significant airline scheduling challenges and those challenges resulted in the cancellation of Colin's flights. That meant while he was with us in spirit, he was unable to join us in 3D in Richmond. So part of this conversation is having an opportunity for our group to actually all connect in, unpack with Colin the events of this past weekend. Maybe to get things started, to give listers a sense for who's in the room. Let's go around and answer how do we typically introduce ourselves in the work we do? And maybe let's go an alphabetical order. So Colin, you want to get started?
Colin Lacey:
Sure. Hi guys, this is Colin Lacey. I'm originally from Ireland, but have been living in the US for 25 plus years. In my day job, I work in product management and marketing and I'm excited to be part of this peer support circle, a really fantastic community for us to gather our thoughts and review the work that we've been doing within our racial community.
Kevin Eppler:
And I'm Kevin Eppler. My pronouns are he and him. I think I would describe the work I do as a community organizer. I'm a content developer, learning partner and program leader for a variety of organizations that are dedicated to racial equity. I'm also a co-founder and steward of WMRJ.
Tim Cynova:
Cool. And we'll dig into that in just a little bit. Noah, you're the CFO of the private equity firm. What else do you want to share by way of introduction?
Noah Becker:
Noah Becker, been part of this group for a couple years and really enjoyed this peer group and the support circle, which has been really a good way of connecting. It's a small group of four or five people meeting every few weeks, in context of a larger group of 40 to 50 meeting every few weeks. So it's a really intimate way of getting the discussion and moving things forward.
Tim Cynova:
And Shannon, bring us home with the intros.
Shannon Mudd:
Hi, my name is Shannon Mudd. I'm an economist. I teach economics at a small liberal arts college that has Quaker roots and a long history of emphasis on social justice. I actually grew up with parents in a church whose members were also very focused on social justice and mission from the civil rights to mental health issues to teen pregnancies and human sexuality, to even the hospice movement.
Tim Cynova:
Shannon, before we dive a bit more into the Richmond weekend and what happened, I wonder if you might want to share a bit about why you got involved with White Men for Racial Justice and what value you find in being a part of a peer support circle.
Shannon Mudd:
What's the value being part of a peer support circle? So basically being able to share some struggles I've encountered in some different spaces as well as share the range of thoughts and emotions that arise with the pretty challenging material we are reading. It's been just a boon and a blessing. And when I say share thoughts and emotions, I mean all the emotions, which is not always allowed in other spaces. It's also been great to have a space just to process things out loud. And these guys have been a huge help for me moving toward really thinking more strategically about situations I have found myself in. Basically now I have a community of good people who are also struggling with various situations and I've come to find they often have some pretty hard earned wisdom to share, often born of failure, which is a pretty good teacher.
I should say that while these conversations mostly happen in our small groups and breakout rooms in the larger group meetings, the way such conversations and personal revolutions are supported in the larger group is part of what makes it possible. I came to White Men for Racial Justice for a deeper dive into anti-racism issues. I had participated in some readings both in a faculty reading group and a small group study at church. But more than that, I was primed by my relationship with my son's best friend in high school. He is Black and we engaged in some difficult and challenging conversations during college breaks when my son was home in the aftermath of the killings of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor and too many others, I realized I was more worried about Bruce and what might happen to him in the outside world than I was ever worried about my own son.
I knew that was just wrong. It pointed to some real issues and serious problems in our society. And I was also prime because I had become aware of what institutional racism might mean in a very practical sense. It had to do with the distribution of our state's educational funding. Now basically where our state had recently instituted a formula that would help correct inequities. It had done so with a hold harmless clause, meaning it would only be applied to newly allocated educational funds. While I understand the sort of the political expediency of a program that meant no district would have its state funds reduced, the existing funding was biased toward the wealthiest school districts and toward the whitest school districts. So while this new formula would eventually lead to less inequities, it was first going to lock in the current inequities for several more generations of students. And that was sort of the first understanding I had of what was meant by systemic racism. And I wanted to see what could be done about it.
Tim Cynova:
So Kevin, you mentioned being one of the stewards. You're one of the community stewards for WMRJ and specifically help design WMRJ in Richmond weekend. Can you sketch out for the listers the purpose of that weekend and how the activities unfolded?
Kevin Eppler:
I will certainly give it my best shot. It was simply the recognition that we learned best in community and in proximity to one another and to the communities in with which we want to be greater connected and to the work that we do as White Men for Racial Justice. I've many times in my life have participated in incredible immersion experiences and know the value. As a trained educator, I spent 20 years in education of experiential learning and we knew that we already have a pretty tight knit, well bonded, well glued community, but we knew that coming to Richmond for an in person immersion experience would only strengthen those bonds.
And we knew that we could do things in person that we simply aren't able to do in the two dimensional world of virtual platforms and Zoom screens and things like that. So I think that drawing on some experiences that others in the community and I have had in person, including a previous retreat of other folks of a multiracial multigender community of practice, confronting issues of race, equity, justice and truth telling, including an experience that several of us had four years ago, we knew that these weekends are essential. They add tremendous depth to the work that we do in community.
And so I wanted to speak for my own personal experience. I wanted to witness and to create the opportunity for others to experience what I had experienced and knew that I would also get much out of it doing it with this community particularly, who over the last two years I've grown so much tighter, so much more connected to and whom as I spoke to during on the weekend, feel a great deal of responsibility and kinship with. So I hope that speaks a little bit into that question. Yeah, so thank you.
Tim Cynova:
One of the things that was interesting was there weren't a lot of details about the Richmond weekend before we actually got to the Richmond weekend. So everyone said yes to this thing without really knowing what was going to happen. We were all together like, "All right, let's get to Richmond." Why did you say yes to this experience?
Kevin Eppler:
Yeah, I want to know that too. Why did you say yes? Because we purposely didn't send out a whole lot, you're absolutely right Tim.
Colin Lacey:
I was certainly sure that I was thinking about this and thinking about what were my expectations coming into the weekend before I couldn't make it and realizing that I really had no idea what was going to happen there. But I was still so excited to A, just be in community with this group of people that we've had such a phenomenal experience with over the past two years virtually. And with the equity advisors kind of being in the same space as them, just getting the opportunity to have that personal connection during the weekend is really what I was looking forward to. Any additional learning development, whatever it was, was going to be icing on the cake.
Noah Becker:
It's a group that we've been meeting on Zooms or other things for two years, and every once in a while, maybe like three or four of us from the peer group met physically once. And I'm sure Kevin and some of the other stewards and folks have been together a lot more. But for us, there's a bunch of people I've seen in two dimensions for two years and actually get to meet them, hang out, have a drink with, break bread with and that's a totally different experience. Is sort of we've been in this long enough and kind of rely on the organizers that there hasn't been a topic yet for, I think, even really any single meeting where it was like, "Well that was not a good use of my time." So if they've delivered for two years, I think it was pretty comfortable to say that it was going to be an enjoyable weekend and educational.
Shannon Mudd:
It was interesting because basically I decided to go because I just have developed a great sense of trust in the leadership team over basically two years that we've been meeting. Every session has included some pretty thought provoking materials and some challenging reflection prompts to chew on. It's been just incredibly helpful to have a group of people who are also trying to figure out what to do with these things, to hash out thoughts, think out loud and to be held accountable. The break out groups really lend themselves to this.
So I figured the retreat would be just that, a retreat. Some time away, away from distractions and not just an hour and a half, but a serious swath of time set aside to really sit with some material, to sit with myself and my own thoughts and history, and to sit with others also trying to navigate through this issue. And ultimately, think how to bring these issues into the other spaces we inhabit.
Kevin Eppler:
Tim, if I can, I want to build on what was said. Which was one, they nailed it, which was the purpose of coming to Richmond was to strengthen the bonds in the community. No question. Full stop with what it meant to be simply together in that space. The second reason we went to Richmond was because it's the home of our pair of equity advisors and therefore, we had connection and community essentially awaiting us there. And we knew that they had opportunities for us to engage, to manifest the work to what they say, get off the porch in Richmond, why we were there for that weekend. So that was reason number two.
And number three is because of the historic significance of Richmond. As the capital of the Confederacy at one time, one of the largest ports of the trafficking of enslaved human beings historically. And also home to Jackson Ward, one of the thriving Black Wall Streets in America and incredible modern day, current day creativity, justice work, communities of practice that are on the ground in Richmond with which we were hoping to connect and engage in some incredible work that's being done there for healing and racial justice. So those are the three real, if you will, somewhat polished motivations or reasons for being in Richmond.
Tim Cynova:
Colin, I'll tell you, it was surreal to the last hug seeing people in 3D that, I mean, it kind of felt like, let me hold up a Zoom square in front of everyone because you're like, "Oh, that's... Mark Mannella is much taller than I thought he was." Like you keep turning around, you'd be like, "People in 3D is kind of surreal." Kevin and I were leaving like... I mean, it's like how do we hold on to that? But it just added such a strange and beautiful dimension after years of not really being in a space together. And certainly for myself, I've not been in a space discussing this topic, wrestling with this topic for three years in 3D. So it was really special to come together with all the people and be like, "Oh god, you're like these real people here."
And then as we mentioned, I sent you that photo, there was an art exhibit in the main hallway that we walked down every single day to go into the main room, and right by the door was Colin's. So we're able to reflect on your reflections of your whiteness being a white guy. So there was that special connection that sort of knitted us together, even though we were states apart. So really, really special and also sort of really surreal.
Colin, I'm curious what questions you have, having had so little information going into say yes. Sadly, you weren't able to be with us in person. What's on your mind as we think about this weekend and what happened? And then how do we reconnect the group? As we've had some people who were in Richmond, some people who were unable to be with us but we're continuing the work two nights ago, and this continues to be something that we do every Tuesday night.
Colin Lacey:
For me, I guess one of the questions I had, absolutely, and one of the things I feel like I just viscerally missed out on as I'm fortunate enough to have met Kevin, Shannon, Noah, in person at least, was to be in shared space with Taylor and Zoe, our equity advisors. And so that's one of the things I wanted to kind of ask the group here was how did it feel to be there with them in person and how did that change your experience?
Noah Becker:
To me, it was just first, the same thing we've been talking about, it's people you've seen on a screen for years but haven't actually met in person. And just seeing somebody live, it's a lot different getting that connection and being in the same room and really hearing their voice unadulterated by your slow internet or any other connection issue, and just being able to catch up, say hello, shake hands, give a hug. It makes you feel a lot closer and more together and I think that will help just something that carries on long run.
Tim Cynova:
There was a lot of variety in our three days together. I mean there is deep reflection in journaling and lecture, if you will, but not really lecture in the way you think. And then a basketball championship and then a group dinner at a Mexican restaurant and the Richmond Slave Trail and all these different things sort of wove together. And we had an opportunity to be in different spaces with each other and connect. So it wasn't just what typically happens on a Tuesday night where we meet on Zoom, we've read some materials, we've watched some things, we talk in sort of breakout groups come back together, or if it's a fireside chat when our equity advisors sort of talk about what's on their mind, what's pressing in their community, how we can get off the porch. But having those moments to just have those side conversations and I also haven't been at a basketball game for three years, so it was kind of this surreal moment as well. Which really made me think about what's the thing that you can't replicate in racial equity work online? What really has to be done in person?
And there were some moments that there's no way you can do that thing online because it's like unscripted, unplanned, unexpected, and it just sort of happens. And it, for me, just took the work so much deeper in a way that I can read things, I can watch, I can discuss, but being there on the Richmond Slave Trail, being there, smelling things. Kevin, I had in my pocket my phone on the up river portion of the Slave Trail and I had a recording because I wanted to record the sounds of these 40 guys walking the Slave Trail. And I was walking right behind Kevin and Kevin had a metal water bottle that had ice in it, and it sort of was rattling in a way that we had just passed this sign that showed the enslaved people in shackles. And there was this sound like that was rattling and then Jay was coughing and then there's just birds chirping.
And there's this juxtaposition of these beautiful scenery and sounds. And also the flip side that are like, well there's some really challenging stuff that's happening right here. And those things are like that'd be tough to do. You can listen to those sounds, you can have people tell you, but to be there with stumbling over sticks and smelling the air and hearing it, and then you've got the boat that was playing like U2 or something on the river. But I've really been trying to think about that. What's the thing that's different? And so for me that was one of those that really created what ultimately is something that I will not forget for the rest of my life. I mean that for me, just deepened my understanding of myself as a white guy in this work and what's required of me. And so I feel like that was just one of the moments that happened during the weekend.
Kevin Eppler:
Yeah, thanks for that. You put me right back in that spot and feeling your hands on my shoulder because we walked hands upon the shoulders of the person in front of you obviously to invoke this sense of being shackled, yoked together and stumbling along a path that we didn't really know well. And with hills and rocks and roots of trees exposed and maybe you see it coming and maybe you don't and you stumble, and it was very much a visceral experience in that regard. To talk about Zoe and Taylor. Luckily I've been in shared space with them multiple times, more Taylor than Zoe, but that was probably my fourth or fifth time meeting Zoe in person, that is of course. And I could still feel Zoe's hug that she has this way of hugging you that just warms your soul. You just feel her fully enveloping you and you can feel this transference of love. That's invaluable, that irreplicable via a Zoom screen, of course.
And so I think about all the other texture and the feeling, the physical feeling of walking foot fall after foot fall on the trail of, to Tim's point, the sounds, the birds chirping while we're in this really solemn, empathic experience. And you are juxtaposed to the party boat jamming out on Miley Cyrus and U2 going right down the river next to you as you're walking. And I actually had the instinct like, "Wait, we should stop and let that boat pass because it seems so disjointed to what we're experiencing now." And then it hit me as I walked and I kind of surrendered to the moment and realized, wait a minute, this is exactly what was going on in 1850s, in Richmond where there was the gentry and the social lights partying in the heart of the city and that noise, of course carried across the waters of the James River where enslaved people were on the other bank being disembarked from boats and darkness, because their sight and their smell was too offensive to the women of Richmond. So it had to be done in darkness.
Of course that was what's happening. Of course, conversations and backyard parties and things like that were always happening. And it was so fitting to have that as the backdrop and just to speak to the, I mean, I don't have any other word, but the insanity of that institution of slavery. And as much of the weekend and the value of the weekend was being able to shake hands and look each other in the eye and I could see the tear drop swelling or I could see the joy, I could feel it in the warmth of the handshake and I've lost count of the amount of hugs. So that was pretty incredible.
Shannon Mudd:
So I've also been reflecting on our experience at the Slave Trail and there's a lot to unpack there. But one of the things that I realized in trying to talk to somebody about it is the reaction was were just trying to feel guilty or were the leaders trying to make you feel guilty? And I really wanted to make clear that we had put in a lot of work and preparation to get to the point where we could be open to this experience of going along the slave trail and the various of physical, visceral experiences that we had there. And what I've really been thinking a lot about again is Jay's question, Jay Coen Gilbert's question to think not only and become empathic, not only of the enslaved people, but also to think what was going on with the white families.
And I think that Kevin is right in terms of yeah, it was just woven throughout the whole society. But also I think about just the kind of middle gymnastics that white families had to go through to deal with this cognitive dissonance of having values of caring about family, of caring about relationships and caring about justice and living in the midst of this. I mean, just think about how screwed up family life was. Our guided experience of the slave trail with our equity partners and Reverend T. It was not about bringing up guilt, it was about recognizing the experiences of the people at the time and recognizing that such trauma on all sides doesn't just disappear and doesn't just go away with time. I think that Reverend T noted that well.
I started thinking about this when we were at the first monument site before the Slave Trail experience, and we visited a monument for Confederate soldiers and sailors. And it was wasn't about a particular individual this time. And Reverend T talked about the erection of the statue and the others and the power of the Southern women who put these up. And pointed to these women were really reeling from what had happened after the war when 75% of all fighting age men went to war and 35% of them were maimed or killed, right? It completely upended their society. And he uttered the phrase in relationship to this statue about the South is going to rise again.
And that is something I heard growing up in Jacksonville. And I couldn't help but wonder like, "What did that mean to people in Richmond and in Jacksonville over the years? What did they see in their mind's eye? And how did they had to romanticize life pre-Civil War?" Because they had to somehow deal with this cognitive dissonance, this holding these things that are in complete tension. And I think that that tension, those mental gymnastics that we put ourselves through, we're still feeling it today. We're still feeling it today and I think that's really important. There's still healing that needs to happen.
Tim Cynova:
Noah, what's on your mind as you reflect about that weekend?
Noah Becker:
Couple things with respect to the physical being there. For me, one of the things was when we started the tour and the reverend had grown up in the area, was really not drastically older than us. And just being there, seeing him and seeing just we're on the highest spot in the area and looking at where the statue was and this was over me for almost my entire life that was really just being in that space. And then the same thing, having somebody really not that 10 or 15 years older than most of us saying, "Yeah, I couldn't go into these places until I was a teenager." And how close that brought to you hear these things and you think about these things and you're thinking about them, so much of them being so far in the past, but then there's somebody standing in front who's dealt with all of this. And maybe it says something about my life that I'm not often that connected with people who are telling the experience they've had. But that was really a visceral part of it for me.
Tim Cynova:
One of the interesting things for me was we can role play online. We can talk about like all right, when we go for Thanksgiving, we're with our family members, how might we approach this differently? Or how might we approach a conversation with someone that we truly disagree with? Or when someone says something racist, how do we respond? This was real life and being able to see how people responded In the moment. Kevin's wearing the White Men for Racial Justice T-shirt, which every day a group of people were wearing this and then walking into the Mexican restaurant with a group of 40 white guys where a third of them are wearing White Men for Racial Justice. You had real moments where people are responding to this group of people coming in. And that created this moment at the Mexican restaurant where someone's walking in and they're like, "Hey, I like your shirt."
And you're like, "Well, what do you like about it?" And then that created this conversation and like half an hour later where like, "Wait, they're still here." It was one of those unscripted, unplanned, unexpected moments that wouldn't have happened. You couldn't have really planned that moment out. That was a genuine exchange by something that happened. Really, it was the T-shirt. So I think those were the kind of moments where there was the planned learning, but also the unplanned learning and the unplanned experience and being in the basketball championship was a Black space. And on the first night, Zoe had asked people list seven Black spaces that you've been in your life. And there are a number of conversations where some people had family, but if I don't have family, we're like, I'm trying to get to three. Then having those moments during the weekend, having it reflected on the very few Black spaces where many of us have been in our lives and then being in them.
Kevin Eppler:
Yeah, it was really powerful. It speaks to this reality that I believe it was Jim Wallace in the book, America's Original Sin points out that 75% of white Americans do not have an authentic relationship with a Black, Indigenous or other person of color, 75%. Not like, "Oh yeah, we're colleagues at work and we talk and we're associates that way." But have you been to each other's house? Have you been to the barbecue? Have you been to the birthday party? Have you gone to church together? And do you hang out in other spaces other than your work environment? Whatever. That's the question. And by that criteria, 75% of white Americans say no.
So that's an interesting dynamic and then the experience with the T-shirt expand upon that Colin, what Tim was saying is we transitioned from this incredible community basketball game, this championship of the RVA League for Safer Streets, which Paul Taylor, we affectionate called P or Taylor has organized for years around these workshops for conflict resolution. And you can't compete in the basketball games if you don't complete the workshops first.
So we went to the championship game and saw an incredible celebration there and then transitioned to this Mexican restaurant. And we're arriving in a variety of cars and in waves, and some of us got there early and some were a little bit later and whatnot. And most of us were in the restaurant when one of our fellow members arrived and got out of the car and caught the eye of these three women eating out on the patio extension of the restaurant. And one Black woman says, "I love your shirt." And he says, "Well thank you. What do you like about it?" And to which she responds, essentially she says, "It means you see me. It means my story. It means our history." Something along those lines. Mic drop moment. And Zoe watching this unfold essentially is from what I understand, builds upon that momentum and says, "Well come on in. Come meet these men. When you all finish up your dinner, do us the favor, please stop by. Come say hello. We'd love to introduce the community to you."
So 20 minutes go by, we're ordering drinks, we're ordering food, and sure enough, these three women turn the corner to the corner of the restaurant in which we are. And Zoe says, "Here they are." And people start clapping and hey. She said, "All right, come on. Come on ladies, come on. Come on." She calls them queens, of course. She says, "Queens, come on, introduce yourself to these men and say to them whatever you need to say." And one after the other, they stand forward, they say their name and burst into tears. The only sentence that any one of them was able to get out was one woman stepped forward and said, "My name is... and I'm raising a Black son." And then she burst into tears. And the last one, she couldn't even, she was just waving because she's crying so much, because they're so moved to see not just one or two but 40 white men rocking White Men for Racial Justice.
They were so moved to know that there's a community out there working on our own racial journey, our own journey towards equity and justice, our own awakening that they couldn't speak. They were rendered speechless. And so a bunch of us pop up and start hugging and start talking and they just say, "You have no idea what this means to us." And I shared this with Tim and some others, I think that the sad thing about that for me, was that that's how low the bar is. Meaning all we did was wear T-shirts and that shattered them. That's how little hope they have otherwise, right? At least in their community and their lived experience from what I heard them say. And I'll never forget that. That's transformative.
Colin Lacey:
That's amazing. It was going to be one of the questions I wanted to ask you guys was like was there a pivotal moment for you in the weekend? And Kevin, that absolutely sounds like one of them, but it seems like there were so many.
Kevin Eppler:
It might not even the top one or two for others because there's another one that I can think of that was pretty pivotal, but that certainly was perhaps it for me, but I'll let the other guys speak, Of course. Love to hear what other candidates you guys could uplift.
Noah Becker:
I think following on with Kevin, to me that was in a lot of ways the most pivotal because I came from the perspective and I still have this perspective, and I was thinking earlier in the day and doing that tour that even if back in the day there were 40 men who were in favor of making changes or doing whatever, it just wouldn't have happened because the system was so set and oppressive that it would've needed far more than that to make any difference. At the end of the day, the only thing that changed back then was a massive war of incredible scale, especially relative to the number of people in the country. That took something so huge to change it that it got me thinking about, well the only thing you could do, the best thing you do is not get into a system like that.
Because once you get so far, maybe there's only a war or something they can get out of it. I was so, in a lot of ways, depressed or thinking about that there's not hope for things and that even that what we're doing is just not... it might soothe us, but it might not be as helpful, but then that moment, what, 2, 4, 6 hours later to at least get that look even what we're doing. And [inaudible 00:33:39] it's a little of it. All I did was show up, but we didn't do anything but that it did make a difference and forget about how it impacts us, the fact that we made a difference was pretty profound. We made a difference for just doing so little. So it at least balanced, for me, a little bit the fact that is there still hope? Are there things that can still be done to make the world a little bit better?
Tim Cynova:
There's this moment, really honored that I had a chance to talk with Zoe about this and that Ned recorded it after the weekend, because there was a moment that happened on the slave trail that was like someone shoved defib paddles into my soul and shocked it. I can't explain exactly what I felt, but I'm like, "That just changes the way I relate to this work." And it was in response and I'll let listeners... we'll tell you about it later, Colin, but I'll let listeners sort of hear Zoe talk about it. But it was in response to prompt from Jay Coen Gilbert, as we're all reflecting, we had just walked the Slave Trail and we were sort of unpacking it with the Reverend T and how we felt about it, and people were empathizing with the enslaved people. If I had lost my child and I was next to a child or I had just come 90 days, 120 days off of a ship in the middle of the night and talking about it.
And Jay reflected back, it's wonderful that we're feeling empathy for the enslaved people, but no one's mentioning what about the ship's captain or the guards or the financiers or the merchants or the bankers or our ancestors who were in these roles. And that was a moment where we're like, "Right, totally missing that." And then this led to this really pivotal moment for me. On the plane back, someone was mentioning Brooks Brothers made clothes for enslaved people and we're like, "Interesting." So that led to more learning about Brooks Brothers and the whole network of complicity in this institution of slavery. And it just sort of made you see how it was all tied together. It didn't matter where you were, relative to the Mason Dixon Line. It was whether you lived in New York or whether worked for a bank, whatever it might be, it was sort of a reframing of that.
And I think we probably in sort of a virtual sense, could unpack that a little bit. But again, sort of standing there in moment you're like, "People were standing right here in 1860 or in 1850 and they'd gotten off the boat right there." Just sort of made it resonate in a different way for me.
Kevin Eppler:
That's another candidate. Colin, I'd imagine one of us would bring that up because I'm glad that Tim, you had the opportunity to unpack that some more with Zoe because that was an incredible and courageous act and a gift to all of us. Yeah, so I think that I didn't think I could leave with more respect and appreciation for our equity advisors, but somehow I did for both of them, because seeing Taylor in his element in the RVA League just took what I thought was already peaked appreciation for him and his brilliance, that took it to a whole other level. That offering from Zoe, as well as her post slave master syndrome talk the night before just reminded me of how lucky we are to have them and their gifts and their offerings to us and to be in relationship with them in the way that we are.
Tim Cynova:
Colin, now that we're like, "Hey, should have been there, it was great." Which is always like "Cool. I wasn't, thanks." I've been wondering as a peer support circle and knowing that one of our five weren't able to be with us, what our responsibility is and how we sort of bridge the gap, if you will. And I'm curious as you think Colin, about what happened, us talking about what happened, but also this work, there's a much longer arc. What might come to mind or what might resonate or this would be helpful or please don't tell me how cool it was, I wasn't there.
Colin Lacey:
It's a great question. I think that even your enthusiasm and excitement about the experience is so visceral, it transfers even virtually. I got that same sense when recently a group got together in Philadelphia, as well on the next WMRJ call, there's just so much excitement and energy in the group. And so yes, I think for me, it just reinforces that I need to book my flight to arrive way earlier than the schedule so I can make sure that even in case of disaster, I can get there. But absolutely committed to figuring out how to make it next time. I'm so not disheartened at all, it just makes me want it more. So I'm thrilled that was so reaffirming for everyone.
Tim Cynova:
As we prepared to land the plan on our conversation today, I'm wondering what we each might want to offer into the space or as we think about the work as white men supporting each other, holding each other accountable.
Kevin Eppler:
I kind of find myself naturally going in that direction of thinking about the role we have as white men to play in the lives of other white men. I hope everybody who went on that community weekend will come away from that weekend feeling invigorated, recommitted, will walk away with a tangible sense of the value and the impact of the work that we're doing. Will walk away knowing how important and needed the work is. And will feel inspired, perhaps to take a piece of the courage that Zoe demonstrated for us to engage other white men and to get them into the community or other anti-racist spaces.
If you're listening to Tim's podcast and series and you're listening to these conversations and the reflections on that weekend, I hope you're hearing from them a testimony to the men in this community and the joy that we find being together, even though the work can be at times quite difficult. But the sense of connection and community and seeing each other and being seen by other is healing for so much of what ails us, and we need more spaces like these were white folks, were white men are particularly are showing up to their learning and unlearning, to be challenged, to be held accountable. So I'm asking all of your listeners to grow curious, to find more about WMRJ and again, other white anti-racist caucus spaces. If you're already in the community and you're listening, I challenge you to reach out, to invite others into this community, because hopefully it means to you what it means to me.
And to everybody I find myself regularly asking for this, because when the community does it, it means so much to me. Which is to hold me accountable, just keep raising the bar. That's what I appreciated about Jay's prompt on the Slave Trails that it made me shift my thinking. Even if I had some resistance to it at first, so much wisdom from this community calls me, as I said in our closing circle, to be a better man. And I think that's invaluable, I think being called by other men to be better, in ways that is done with love and without judgment. Too few spaces that I've been in do that. And so that's my final message is come on in, come on in. It's hard, but you're not alone and we'll walk it arm in arm and there's room. We all have something to learn. We all have something to contribute.
Colin Lacey:
Yeah, that's amazing. Kevin. I constantly kind of come back to the realization that there's never a point at which we're done here. This is lifelong and beyond work. It's very easy to think that we can do a six week or 12 week or whatever program and suddenly we've checked a box and we kind of like to get the cookie and move on and that's just not how this works. There's no certificate that we're going to get at some point to say we've mastered something here. I think we have to embrace the approach of just lifelong learning and engagement and we have, I think, all realized how much we have to deal with our own shame and re-embrace our humanity to actually engage in this work. And so that's where a group like this is just phenomenal to be able to provide the support to engage in those conversations because it's very hard to just simply be the good white person kind of in isolation. There's just so much to unpack, if you will. And so that's where I come away from all of this.
Noah Becker:
Yeah, I mean I appreciate what everybody said and I really hear what Colin says, just thinking through about this, it's never going to end and it's ongoing and just keeping the hope and keeping the faith. And that's why somebody, like I said, was so powerful for me the event of the Mexican restaurant sort of help keep the one side of my mind that maybe there is hope and opportunity and things that we can do better and improvements we can make, but just knowing that it's permanent in the work is never going to end.
Shannon Mudd:
I am really trying to seek proximity with other communities and to be curious and to show up and just be present. So not to take the lead or try to solve problems. Cause there's a lot of learning that still needs to happen. So it's important to sort of be aware that this is a process we need to play the long game. I'm also really trying to purposely show up to spaces that are working to address racial inequities as we are learning, white men seem to be sparse in these places for some reason, perhaps because we are the most at risk. I've also learned to recognize the value of having spaces outside of work where you are just another person, not someone in power. To use those opportunities to be aware of power dynamics in that space. I'm finding it allows me to better recognize those dynamics, those dynamics of power and recognize unfolding situations, and it gives me some practice in responding a little more slower and more intentionally, rather than just reacting and just trying to fix things all the time.
Tim Cynova:
There's something that resonated for me as we were wrapping up on Sunday, and it's a comment that a friend of mine made several years ago and he said, "People will spend a lifetime avoiding an awkward 90 second conversation." And as I think about this work, how many just it's going to be awkward, that 90 seconds will be awkward. We'll make it through it, but how much richer and deeper and meaningful it will be because you've done that thing or you've had that conversation. And I think about this work, the lifelong work, we're going to have a lot of these 90 seconds that let's just take them as they come. And to be a part of a community like this where you can get that support. Where you can be held accountable, you can have that awkward 90 second conversation and be like, "Tim, come on." But that's grounded in caring and love and support.
It was incredibly meaningful to me and I just want to say, gentlemen, many thanks both for today, for sharing so honestly and vulnerably but thank you so much for being part of my own journey. My own personal journey in this work, for challenging me, for holding me accountable, for your support. And thanks for being on podcast.
Kevin Eppler:
Likewise, I echo that appreciation for all of you and for holding me accountable and calling me to my best self. So I share that gratitude. Tim, thank you for hosting us. Thank you for this incredible space and I look forward to talking again soon.
Colin Lacey:
Absolutely. Thanks so much, Tim. This was awesome.
Noah Becker:
Yeah, thanks Tim. This is great.
Tim Cynova:
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