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Updated
April 9, 2024
In this episode, host Tim Cynova interviews Ann Le and Meg Buzzi, authors of the book "The In-Between: A Companion for Uncertain Times." The discussion brings in many of the challenges of work in the current chaotic and uncertain landscape, and offers insights on how individuals, teams, and organizations can stay engaged and motivated. At the heart of the discussion, Ann and Meg invite listeners to rethink their relationship with work and explore new possibilities.
Episode Highlights
03:18 The Genesis of The In-Between: A Book for Uncertain Times
05:06 Unpacking Work Culture: Insights from The In-Between
08:00 Navigating Work and Life in a Post-Pandemic World
08:43 Redefining Work: From Transactional to Transformational
15:52 The Future of Work: Adapting to Change and Embracing Uncertainty
16:29 Bridging Old Systems and New Realities
19:09 Practical Advice for Organizations in Transition
24:32 Evolving Ideas and Unexplored Themes
Bios
Ann Le is thinker, leader, and finance/operations pro, working on building strong, sustainable, anti-racist systems and organizations. She's leaning into how we can leverage new technologies, finance and community to combat racial and economic injustice. Ann spent a decade as a VP in investment banking, then spent 5 years at a major film studio. After her MBA, Ann has worked and held leadership roles with over 50+ organizations from large corporations to start-ups, non-profit, government, and has served on numerous boards. She's also written a great, but not best-selling cookbook, and produced an award-winning Sundance independent film. She graduated from UC Berkeley with a degree in Economics, with a focus on history and labor, and has an MBA from the UCLA Anderson School of Business. Ann will ask you if any of this matters as we move out of the In-Between, and we enter a new paradigm of work and community: there's a new way to see and value ourselves. Ann has been described as a great teammate, a caring, intuitive human with a strong Slack game who also writes the "opposite of boring" emails.
Meg Buzzi is a change artist helping to build imaginative solutions to systemic challenges, especially at work. She is a PCC-certified coach, writer, and co-founder of the Present of Work (presentofwork.com) consulting group and the Starter Cultures (startercultures.us) change community. She helps teams and leaders level-up and reconnect to what truly matters to them. A former Chief Information Officer, Meg has led multi-million-dollar change efforts in K-12, higher education, government, and tech. But her most valuable learning is about building community and practicing trust when we are faced with complexity and challenge. Meg is a graduate of the Iowa Writers' Workshop, an Art of Hosting facilitator and a contributor to the books Fieldworking (Bedford St. Martin's), The Rhetoric of Inquiry (Macmillan), and Narrative Generation. Send her a note at meg@presentofwork.com.
Tim Cynova, SPHR (he/him) is the Principal of Work. Shouldn’t. Suck., an HR and org design consultancy helping to reimagine workplaces where everyone can thrive. He is a certified Senior Professional in Human Resources (SPHR) and a trained mediator, and has served on the faculty of Minneapolis College of Art & Design, the Banff Centre for Arts & Creativity (Banff, Canada) and The New School (New York City) teaching courses in People-Centric Organizational Design, and Strategic HR. In 2021, he concluded a 12-year tenure leading Fractured Atlas, a $30M, entirely virtual non-profit technology company and the largest association of independent artists in the U.S., where he served in both the Chief Operating Officer and Co-CEO roles (part of a four-person, shared, non-hierarchical leadership team), and was deeply involved in its work to become an anti-racist, anti-oppressive organization since they made that commitment in 2013. Earlier in his career, Tim was the Executive Director of The Parsons Dance Company and of High 5 Tickets to the Arts in New York City, had a memorable stint with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, was a one-time classical trombonist, musicologist, and for five years in his youth he delivered newspapers for the Evansville, Indiana Courier-Press. Learn more on LinkedIn.
Transcript
Meg Buzzi:
What if solving the problems at work could be fun? Maybe that makes some people roll their eyes, but I really believe it can be a pleasure. It can feel like flow when we drop our old ideas of work and step into what else is possible.
Tim Cynova:
Hi, I'm Tim Cynova and welcome to Work Shouldn't Suck, a podcast about, well, that. In this episode, I have the pleasure of connecting with Ann Le and Meg Buzzi, authors of The In-Between: A Companion for Uncertain Times. In their book, they offer an explore prompts like how can we stay engaged and motivated given the chaotic and uncertain landscape of work? And what can we do right now to prepare for a future we do not know? I can imagine many listeners are saying to themselves right now, "Yeah, how do we do that?" And as we're recording this episode, three plus years into a global pandemic, a racial awakening that still is resonating in various ways across the United States, and companies that are actively designing and redesigning alternate work arrangements, these and more related questions are very much top of mind for many of us. I'm excited to spend this time with Ann and Meg to learn more about how they're thinking about it a year now after their book's publication, and what's resonating for them as we continue to live into futures we do not know. So Ann and Meg, welcome to the podcast.
Meg Buzzi:
Thanks so much.
Ann Le:
Thank you, Tim.
Tim Cynova:
I know you both wear multiple hats, and maybe to really ground us in the conversation today, can I invite you each to introduce yourselves and the work you do?
Meg Buzzi:
Sure. Ann, why don't you go first?
Ann Le:
My byline is short. I am a fractional CFO consultant. Come on board to nonprofits, startups, usually in that finance capacity, short-term projects. I've been doing that for about 12 years, have had the pleasure of working with Meg here. Meg, can you tell us about the work you do?
Meg Buzzi:
I have been working most of my career in tech, not as an engineer, but as a change management professional. I put that in quotes because I feel like change is not something that's easy to do professionally. And I have been working for the past 10 years or so specifically on how to help teams become more trusting, more effective, more impactful, and teams that suck less. So I've been working a lot as a coach, as a learning consultant, as an organizational designer to really help change initiatives or teams inside organizations reconnect to their purpose.
Ann Le:
And in my work, I've worked with dozens of teams now, and even though it's in that operations or finance capacity, inevitably there's more to unpack with an organization. So Meg is my go-to. "Meg, come in, let's dissect this. Let's figure out what this team needs, because it's not about just the bottom line.| So Meg has been really great at just unearthing some other gaps in problem spots in teams that actually can then make us sing. That's where we've intersected with one another.
Tim Cynova:
Well, we're certainly living during a time that has exposed a lot of gaps and different ways that we might go about things that pre-pandemic people didn't give much thought to or most people didn't give much thought to. How we work, what gives you energy, how do we manage change? And so I'm really excited to hear what led you two to think, oh, maybe we should write a book.
Meg Buzzi:
Our origin story is fascinating. I met Ann about 12 years ago when I first moved to Los Angeles, and I showed up to an event that she was hosting at one of her organizations. And over the years, she and I have worked together on a variety of teams and initiatives, and we just started to see these patterns together of when work gets stuck, when there are obstacles to these big initiatives that seem to have lots of momentum or money behind them, but they're still not functioning. And so we kept looking and kept looking and I think we just, through our conversations and work together, identified some pretty specific patterns we saw over and over that inspired us, especially during lockdown, to put them to paper and say, "Oh my gosh, do other people see it the way we see it? Maybe there is an opportunity for us to show our part of the world where we think the ecosystem could be improved and all the changes that could happen with very minimal effort." And a lot of that change starts with the individual. I'll stop there and see if Ann has anything to add.
Ann Le:
We also had all these templates and had talked about all the great work that Meg does in all of her workshops, all of the grounding rituals that she does with teams, all the juicy meeting things that she brings to the team retreats or strategy sessions. And I said, "What if we just compiled it in a book?" So our book is divided into a couple of different parts. One is just our treatise about how we see the direction of work and how individuals exist in it. The second part is our framework around the wheel, which we can get into as well.
And then the last part, which I think is the more fun part, is really, and I want to give credit to Meg for this. It's all of her little gems that she gets paid to do to come into the teams and share out with everyone, but now we've just distilled it into the book. Yes, it's also how do we want to change the world, but also how do we share this and also monetize it in some ways? That was the beginning of the in-between for that.
Meg Buzzi:
Ooh, I have one juicy thing to add if I could, which is building off of something that Ann said. We also wanted to link these big ideas and patterns we were seeing out in the work world down to that grounded root of what can a single person do to make it better? And you don't have to be the CEO or the CFO or the expert to do it. So to Ann's point about the exercise, we wanted to make sure the last part of the book was incredibly practical, and that anybody from anywhere inside the organization could do some things to make work better.
Ann Le:
There is an element of woo to this, Tim, that I'm sure you've read through that isn't just about the four-hour work week or any kind of productivity hacks, and sharing out the information too. I think also we are very clear about we're not reinventing the wheel here. I think that's what's neat about this is some of the rituals that Meg points out, some of the things that we're thinking about, even just meditation as a part of your work life practice. This is ancient stuff that people have been doing, and how do we go back and reconnect to that?
Meg Buzzi:
That's a great point, Ann. There's nothing in this book that is novel. It's really looking at what are things humans have done throughout history to solve problems together and to be in complexity together?
Tim Cynova:
I often find that when working with various companies and groups, it's as though there's a magic wand that you can wave to fix this massive problem. Retention in a competitive location like San Francisco where it's really expensive to live there and talking to nonprofits who are competing with for-profit software development companies that have very different resources. What are those tools that you can use? What are the patterns that you see that sort of transcend sector, organization, that are just human beings coming together to try and accomplish something? And then what can you actually do, rather than just continue to talk about it and talk about it, but to one of the prompts that include what can you do right now to really move toward what you really want in an uncertain future?
Ann Le:
Maybe I can start with this because this is how Meg and I usually interact, which is, "I have this problem that I'm seeing. Meg, what do we do?" And this ties to the book too. I'm sure you both feel this as well. I think what I talk to my founders or my executive teams about is the piece about employees and retention. I think people still view, even after all these years, work as a transaction. "I'm paying you to do this. You should do this." What are we doing incorrectly? And is it the scope? Is it we're not paying people enough? And everyone just used the same thing out of their toolbox. And I think people are not seeing the bigger picture of what is a good job? What is good work? And they're not addressing the agita that's around what people are feeling that work isn't wrapped up in your identity anymore.
And maybe for some people it is too, but it's not in the same way. And I don't know if organizations are really going to their people or to their audience and saying, "What is meaningful work to you? And how does that fit into how you're seeing the world now?" And I'm not even just saying work-life balance, but there's something much broader that everyone's really delving into in their own personal lives. And maybe it's okay also if work has to look at their current workforce and say, "Hey, they're not interested in a bonus. Maybe they want a week off that's paid. Maybe they want someone to celebrate their birthday." Just asking those questions I think is important.
Meg Buzzi:
One that I would add in terms of the patterns that Tim's asking about, one is an abdication of accountability. So one pattern I see is people, whether they're managers, leaders, whether they're just individual contributors, they back out and they say, "Well, it's above my pay grade or I don't want to deal with it," or dah dah. They back out of any responsibility for the collective. They're just going to do what's inside their job. And so I think that that's pervasive everywhere and it creates a decay in the social fabric because everyone's just, like Ann said, it's just transactional. Except that we know it's not really transactional, because people are still bringing their emotional stuff to work. They're still bringing their relationships to work, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, we do better not to deny that we do that.
Gallup's 2023 State of the Workplace talks about the single biggest issue being engagement. And what that means is that people just aren't paying attention. They're not in relationship with each other or with the work, or maybe the leaders are not really in relationship to the people they're employing. All of these dynamics are at play, but there's just this, I would call it a weakening of the social fabric. And because that communication or that relationship isn't happening, the work and the product suffer. The profit suffers. The bottom line suffers. So all the things "Ann the CFO" cares about, all of those things suffer when you don't address the relational stuff that's happening in the organization.
And it doesn't have to be like taking medicine. It doesn't have to be everybody sort of feeling ashamed for how it's been or whatever. It doesn't have to be an unpleasant experience. It's really about what are practices we can bring in to facilitate the growth of that social fabric. Because people change and forget to tell each other. People change in the workplace, the work itself changes, and the communication just doesn't keep up with it. And so the solution is not to have 80 more meetings so that we all communicate. The solution is not six more Slack channels so that we can communicate. The solution is actually creating space and rituals to connect us with each other.
Tim Cynova:
I hear almost more of an increase in understanding, not communicating. We've got countless Slack channels and meetings and whatnot, so we're communicating or we're acting like we're communicating, but we're not actually understanding each other and how we come together as a team. Which to your point, I often think about an organization that might have the exact same people from January 2020. They're not the exact same people now. And I think most of us have gone through what do I really value when I can't have that thing? I used to not give any thought to that, but now that I wasn't able to connect with people for two years, or family care, all these other things have sort of changed the dynamics of how we relate to work. And even from a transactional, I think it is a transaction. I'm giving this company my knowledge, skills and abilities and expertise in exchange for money, and is that the right balance?
And we see with a lot of the employment right now where people are saying, "No, this isn't what I want to get from life and work." I have a friend who wrote an article about work as the new religion. He is a pastor and he was comparing the decline in people who are a part of organized religion, and are people trying to get more from the workplace than maybe they should? So trying to balance all those different things where, as you said, people are bringing a lot with them. Maybe what's the right balance or what's a better balance or how should we even think about balance when the workplace is where we spend the bulk of our waking hours?
Meg Buzzi:
I'm thinking about a crisis of listening. I just think of the swirl of issues around we don't have a lot of attention to give. We don't have a lot of focus to give. Our listening might be compromised because there's a lot of noise, both literal and figurative, around us. And so again, I feel like there's this pervasive, staff and leadership, for example, how are they even listening to each other? I think with the strikes we see across the country right now. One of the fundamental things is, okay, so this writer's strike here in Los Angeles lasted over five months. At the end of the day, they got everything they asked for, but we had to go through this very punishing process where no one was listening to each other. How might we, and I believe this is possible, how might we shrink the time it takes to begin to really hear how we are changing?
Because people are changing, have changed over the last three years, in a very fundamental way. How might be able to hear it so that those folks feel acknowledged? Or else they're still going to be, like Ann said, that agita of no one is hearing what I need. And I think that also connects to feeling like their values aren't heard or recognized or seen.
Ann Le:
I wonder too, and I think this was part of us writing this book, Meg, is pulling out of people, what are their values? With everything shifting as it is, maybe the strike is a little bit more clear. "Let's talk about AI, let's talk about residuals." That's tactical and logistical. But I know sometimes when I've talked to colleagues or people I've worked with, it's also helping them name, "Okay, I'm getting paid for this, I'm being offered this," but they're still figuring out what's important to them. And that also dives into, "Is where I'm at the right place too? And what are the steps I need to do to listen to myself and what do I value in that?" I think we always presume that it's easy to sit down and have a conversation like, Tim, you're my CEO. You're going to tell me X, Y, Z, and then you're going to hear from me, "Well, I know what Ann wants," but what do you do, Tim, if I'm still figuring it out?
Tim Cynova:
Well, and not acknowledging that no one has this figured out. There's people who pretend like they do or who seem like they do, but no one's lived through a global pandemic. And trying to figure out this is the first time in most people's lives when they don't have to live in the same place where they work, so how do you decide where you want to live? What are your criteria for that, if it can be separate from where you need to work? So these all are new questions that we're as human beings trying to wrestle with, because maybe this isn't exactly what we want, but where's the line? And acknowledging that and surfacing it in maybe ways that went unknown or unarticulated pre-pandemic.
Meg Buzzi:
I think you just explained the title of our book, because it is this in-between time when we've got one foot in the world of still have to pay my bills, still have to pay utilities. All these things need to happen in the old physical material world, and yet I have one foot in this new world where I can work anywhere on any time zone. My team is global and hybrid. My job might be amorphous. I might go from project to project rather than having a single title or career for several years. So I think part of the collective angst right now is the ambiguity and the duplicity, having to be in both. Because we're watching the old systems. We're watching it right now in Congress. They're facing obstacles because of their own rules. So something about the structure just doesn't work for us anymore, the way we work, and I would say it's the same at work.
We've been fed this concept that balance is possible, that work-life balance is even a thing that exists, but balance is not a static state either. It's a constant movement. When your body is standing up, there's all these micro movements going on in the bottoms of your feet to keep balance, keep balance, keep balance. You might not even register that. To you, you're just standing still. When you zoom into what balance is, it's all these tiny, tiny, tiny adjustments. And so we look at some of the exercises in these books, these tiny adjustments that you can make to restore some of that balance. And it's not permanent and it's not linear, but there's ways to recapture your footing at certain moments because you are moving between these different worlds.
Tim Cynova:
I love that you start breaking it down to it seems stable, but there's a lot of stuff shifting. And as you talk about, the old systems are tanking. The brilliant choreographer Liz Lerman describes things as the snapback. And I think a lot of people are experienced in that snapback where we're in between and the systems want you to go back to the way they were because they're built to sustain themselves in that or seemingly built to sustain themselves in that. Well, we've just experienced different ways of being and connecting in ways that allow more people to thrive, that it can be equitable, just, inclusive. When you're working with organizations, when you wrote this book, what are some of the things that would be useful right now as people are like, "I feel like my organization is snapping back, and going back is not what's going to be helpful to us. How can we move forward in this ambiguity?" What do you typically advise? What do you think are some things that would resonate with people?
Meg Buzzi:
One of the things that I love is doing a listening tour, convening spaces for people in the organizations to say what they need and to witness their current experience. My consultancy is called The Present of Work because the current zeitgeist is all about the future of work, but I'm like, "Okay, we're never going to get to this mechanical, robotic, AI-assisted future that is going to be both nightmarish and very great for us, apparently. We're never going to reach that spot until we deal with what is present, what's happening right now." I would say most organizations have not actually sat down and asked their employees in the last two years, "What do you need now? What's work like now? What's here now? How are these projects working now?"
To me, it's anything that's going to help self-examination so that you can take a snapshot in time to say what's actually here, and then take a moment to reflect it back to the people in the organization. "Here's what we heard. Does this sound right? Does it feel right? Does it look right? Add or subtract? That first step is just having conversations to develop a collective snapshot of where are we even, because there's all these assumptions and stories about here's who this company is, and we've been around for how many years and dah, dah, dah, dah. But as you said, Tim, the last two or three years are unprecedented. So many different things have happened. How do we know where our workers are? How do we know how our leaders feel? We don't, really.
Ann Le:
I love what you said, Meg. You do such important work with getting teams onto their path of discovery about who they are, and I don't want to sound reductive about it, but once you get your team to that place, then you're teaching them how to adapt because this just goes back to the volatility of the world. It's not even just pandemic, it's climate crisis. It's a war that gets started in Europe and affects the bond markets and then that loan you're about to sign. I've seen so many things happen that, wow, we didn't expect a hurricane in LA. We didn't expect Congress to shut down that now affect X, Y, Z that we were planning on, and even distills to conversations I'm having with my kids where you look at schools in LA. Let's get them into arts, let's get them into STEM. And I'm like, "We don't even know what jobs are going to be out there, and our parents certainly didn't."
And I just want to teach my kids to be adaptable, and social emotional learning. There's research out there that says if you can get your kids at middle school, even late elementary, just to get social emotional learning habits and [inaudible 00:22:32] there, you don't even need academics. If you think about it, it's just like how to interact with people and kindness, and they're on their way. It's very different now. There's no box you get to sit in these days. You don't know what's going to happen, so get your team in order, people.
Tim Cynova:
Well, and how would you recommend that? What have you found is helpful?
Meg Buzzi:
I think one of the biggest things is getting a snapshot. It's a snapshot of the team or the org, whatever you're looking at. Maybe it's a change initiative, maybe it's a single project or program, but you want to take a snapshot, which is what we help with, and then give everyone a chance to look at it together. We're looking at the same picture together and we're describing it together, because typically you're just looking at one tiny piece of the snapshot and you've missed the larger context. That's part of giving everyone the same context so that then you can move forward with things like strategy or other initiatives, getting everyone on the same page. And then creating practices in the team or organization that give people a place to listen to each other and make updates to that collective snapshot.
Maybe this sounds really esoteric. I'll bring it to ground. Some of the basic concepts that we use in agile software development are great patterns to use for teams to stay together in the change. Simple, simple, simple things like meeting a few days a week as a standup. So 10 minutes in the morning you stand in a circle and you tell your coworkers, "Here are the things I'm working on today and here's an obstacle I'm facing." So getting into that practice, back to the beginning of our conversation, about self-accountability, and performing and practicing that self accountability with the other people that you're working with and saying, "I'm going to be transparent about what I'm working on and when I'm having issues." And it's just practicing a muscle so that you're showing up for your team in a consistent way. And that, again, creates better product, better services, more consistent performance on the front end.
Tim Cynova:
I can imagine knowing both of you, the work that you do, writing a book is putting your ideas in a point in time, and as soon as it's done, you're probably like, "Well, that's starting to get out of date." So I'm curious, what has changed in your thinking over the years since you published? And also, what could you not figure out how to get into this book, but you're like, it would be really important, but it was an idea that didn't fit or is a tangential concept that we couldn't include or didn't feel fit in this that is also important to consider in this work?
Meg Buzzi:
In terms of since we've published this, I remember when we wrote it feeling fear that the stuff in this book was very radical. Now it seems tame, to me at least. And I'm not sure if this is helpful to the audience or not, but things that seemed really radical to entertain at the beginning of lockdown, even making the statement, "Work is never going back to the way it was," felt like this big radical thing. Are we sure? And now in retrospect, that was an understatement.
Ann Le:
I echo that. I think that's my only concern. Certain concepts feel dated now. You mentioned things around the fallacy of productivity or the need to work out what your stories are. Sometimes I think people maybe have moved beyond that a little bit. I'm feeling if there's one thing I would like to add more is we have such a small section, Meg, if you recall, around the connection to your body. And I think now what doesn't feel dated and people are talking about more is how much the self-care of your health is. When I'm talking, people are really paying more attention to. Maybe it's our age too, but I think you're starting to see the sickness in their thirties and their forties. And talking to some of my friends, they're like, "Ann, wait until you're in your fifties and sixties. Everyone's going to be talking about their health." But I feel like I'm hearing that more, both mental health and also physical health and how that's manifesting for people.
There's a book too. There's probably more to speak about how work and how you're thinking about things that are unresolved around your values and the purpose of living is translating into unhealthiness.
Meg Buzzi:
What Ann is bringing up about physical body and also spiritual body, if we can be so bold. There's not a lot of work in the US published around work and spirituality, and I want to make the distinction spiritual, not religious, but there's lots of research happening in other parts of the world like India and some parts of Africa where they're looking at the impact that individual spirituality or spiritual practice has on work and performance. So I think there's work there to be done that I'm really interested in. And then from a practice's point of view, from a practical team point of view, somatics, which is using the body to understand things, using the body to solve problems, which might sound crazy in a work context.
But as an example, just this week, I was working with a big nonprofit here in Los Angeles. And during our learning offsite for the team, we did something called Social Presencing Theater, which is from a practitioner called Arawana Hayashi who's affiliated with MIT. And the idea of the team working through their problems even in motion with their bodies, which maybe for your listeners sounds super weird, but it was very illuminating for people. So I think there are a lot of emergent practices that use our physical selves to move through the work.
Tim Cynova:
I love that example, especially as we're thinking about what's best done in person versus what can be done via Zoom, via remote, and using that as an example of there's something that is very difficult to do when you're all in a Zoom rectangle together. You can do it, but the value of doing it in place together probably resonates a lot more for that group. No surprise, our time is flying by. And speaking about flying and landing the planes, as we land the plane on our conversation today, where do you both want to land it?
Meg Buzzi:
I would love to just make an invitation, because our book starts with an invitation to rethink and redefine how you feel about work, your relationship to work, how you might define work. I want to leave this conversation with an ellipsis. That's an invitation to engage with either Ann or I. If you're interested in talking about dynamics on your team, if you're interested in bringing more energy and motivation to an initiative in your organization, or even if you're just looking at wanting to engage or understand your customers or your community differently, we would love to talk.
Ann Le:
In the theme also of work shouldn't suck, agree, it shouldn't. I'd also would like to say it doesn't have to be that hard. I think the hard part is just making time and space for it and looking at some dark spots, but otherwise we would encourage everyone to make that time for that path of discovery, for themselves and for their teams.
Meg Buzzi:
Thank you. And that makes me want to add that it can be a pleasure. I always say, "What if solving the problems at work could be fun?" Maybe that makes some people roll their eyes, but I really believe it can be a pleasure. It can feel like flow when we drop our old ideas of work and step into what else is possible.
Ann Le:
It's beautiful. Purpose. It's fun to find it.
Tim Cynova:
Ann and Meg, thank you so much for your time today, for your offering. For those who want to explore the book, explore more about the work that you're doing, you can find the link in the episode description for this podcast episode. And Ann and Meg, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
Ann Le:
Thank you, Tim.
Meg Buzzi:
Tim, thank you so much. It's so good to have HR experts out there who are following the new path.
Tim Cynova:
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